First Saddle Project - Advice Appreciated

[rktaylor]

Ron L.

I hand stitched everything. If I bought a sewing machine, my wife would get it in the divorce. I used a jig similar to the one in Dusty Johnson's book. However there is a really good discussion about rigging placement in one of these threads. I need to review it again.

Ron, I have done some tooling, but not a lot. I did some leatherwork when I got out of high school, but just got back into it a couple years ago (about a 30 year layoff). Keep in mind that I took the pictures. There are some areas that are better than others. I was more interested in construction on this saddle than tooling. My next one will have more.

Thanks for the compliments.

Randy

[rdl123]

Hello:

Here is the latest progress: Final ground seat piece installed, cantle back installed, rigging pattern drawn.

I took it and put it on a horse yesterday and the rigging pattern seems to line up like I'd wanted it to.

Comments / input will be valued as usual!

The other question I have is skirt length - I was taught to go 2" ahead of front bar tip, and 3" beyond rear bar tip. However this would give me a finished skirt length of 29.5" which I think may be long - Can someone comment on this - I have tried to research this but haven't come up with a lot of info.

[thecowboy7]

Looks great so far! As far as your skirt length is concerned... as long as it doesn't impede the movement of your horse, then do what you think is right. For comparison sake, I've got a 16.5" wade that has a 28.5" skirt length. It's a fairly long saddle, but fits my big ranch horse really well. In the end, that's what really counts. Also, with skirts that long you'll need longer saddle pads $$$ Hope that helps!

David

[rktaylor]

The Dusty Johnson book says skirts should be no longer than 29". Is the back of the cantle tooled? Your ground seat looks great.

[oltoot]

1" in front, measured after blocking is enough. I have used all the way from 1" to 3" behind, again, measured after blocking. In the case of the back, the best thing to look at is how much it takes to cover up the back rigging like you want and go from there. Line, flow, balance should make the final decision, not a hard and fast measurement tradition.

[rdl123]

Thanks for the comments everyone - I am going to try to get the finished, blocked skirts to measure @ 28" - 28.5" - I'll lace them about half way @ back.

Randy - The cantle back is tooled - Not a very good picture though - I'll try to get a better one. When it came time to actually install the cantle back I had some fun with it - Profile of tree at the cantle is quite 'bubbled' and I had a hard time convincing the leather to actually stick in all areas - Ended up pounding it down several times with a hammer over a leather pad - However - It didn't make cantle back any prettier...

Oltoot - I agree - Flow and balance is what is really important to me - I think that some of the best looking saddles out there are the plain ones that are really well proportioned...I've looked at Steve Masons work a fair bit - I like his lines and how his rigs look.

How important is it to slick out my rigging leathers?

R

[Goldshot Ron]

Randy, what you'll find is that saddle pads are only 29 to 31 inches in length. Last year I built a saddle that I thought looked good, and it was based on a design of Pat Parreli's saddle. The skirts were too long for the clients pad and his horse. I ended up making new skirts; and, the finished product now fit the clients horse; but, didn't look the way that I had envisioned.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Goldshot Ron

[thecowboy7]

Randy, what you'll find is that saddle pads are only 29 to 31 inches in length. Last year I built a saddle that I thought looked good, and it was based on a design of Pat Parreli's saddle. The skirts were too long for the clients pad and his horse. I ended up making new skirts; and, the finished product now fit the clients horse; but, didn't look the way that I had envisioned.

Ron - Just an FYI... while most of my arena pads are around 30", all of my pads for daily ranch work and ridin' in the mountains are at least 32" long. I even have a nice Coolback pad that is 34" long. It costs a little more to get them, but I've found that when riding sometimes 50-60 miles a day with saddlebags on the back and gear on the front, a long pad goes the extra-mile in protecting the horse. Some might think it's overkill, but I've never had a horse complain

[rdl123]

Thanks cowboy7: I measured my good wool pads last night and one is 32" and the other is 33" - The Navajos I use over them are just a bit shorter. So should be OK. This saddle will get used on a bunch of horses so I want to make sure it doesn't get too long - Especially if I'm riding younger horses.

[thecowboy7]

Thanks cowboy7: I measured my good wool pads last night and one is 32" and the other is 33" - The Navajos I use over them are just a bit shorter. So should be OK. This saddle will get used on a bunch of horses so I want to make sure it doesn't get too long - Especially if I'm riding younger horses.

No problem... Your pad setup sounds really similar to mine. Also, I totally agree about making sure the saddle isn't too long. Mine works great on the bigger ranch horses, but on smaller stock and colts it's a bit much. I'll be starting to build my first saddle middle of this month, and I'm shooting for something that I can use on a bigger variety of horses. Oh, and I'm definitely lookin' forward to seein' your saddle when it's all finished!

[Aurelie]

NICE work going!

[rdl123]

So this weekend I cut my skirts out, fitted them to the tree and blocked them, Also got out flat plate rigging and the liners for these plates.

However, bit of an issue with my skirts - I'd sure like to hear your thoughts on this - Basically I used the Al Stohlman pattern for skirts and went slightly butterfly with the pattern.

However, as you can see in the picture they aren't very deep at the rear cantle point - Or where the rear billet rigging plate will be - My question is - Do I just go ahead and use them or do I cut new ones that are deeper? It is important t me that this saddle is 100% functional - Especially for roping. Will these smaller skirts @ the back be an issue?

Kind of frustrating to say the least! My pattern looked great - However once I actually got the skirts laced and on I realized I need to take 3/8" of each side @ the rear where they butt up - The 3/8" was removed from the inside side - This jacked the skirts up another 3/8" plus blocking sucked up more skirt material than I had guesstimated - The bottom line is they are way shallower than I had planned on. Should I live with it or cut new skirts - Probable means buying a new side of Herman Oak.

rdl

Edited January 13, 2014 by rdl123

[rdl123]

Oops - Started post I didn't mean to...

Edited January 13, 2014 by rdl123

[Aurelie]

hum....

just my 2 cents.....other will give their toughts if they want

1/ you re with flate plates so the back rigging will be attached to the flat plates (not the skirts) = here no troubles in paradise (you do have a lot of room between the back rigging and the sirt (the other way around would be a problem)

2/ regarding the skirts (i am talking for myself ) : i ve been taught that skirts had a play in "support" (i won't discuss that further because this is a touchy subject - i do not care if people agree or not / i do not care to enter an endless discussion about who is right or wrong)

SO i would tend to say :

i would do them a bit wider than that for a ranch BUT i would do that kind of skirts for a Barrel

ANYWAY : i think that you can stay with that AND keep in mind this thought for your next saddle ....

I do not think that there is a "big" problem technically speaking but more an esthetical one

Keep going

[rdl123]

Thanks Aurelie: Also, I do have enough room still to move the rear plate up about 3/4" and it will still be off the bars - This will help the aesthetic issue...My jockeys can swoop down, cover rivets in rear plate, and be off of skirt line by about 1" or so...

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

rdl

[Aurelie]

beware of staying "straight" and "level" with the floor with your rigging on both side => really important

better stay "good" technically and drop a bit the "esthetic" rather than the other way around.....(my opinion at least)

you will not have big troubles with back jockeys ......

you will just have a kind of "Barrel Look" and small Back jockey

if it really bother you = just make another pair of skirts (if yuo're not short of leather and if you really want a "traditionnal" look )

:D

[Goldshot Ron]

I suggest you start over on your skirts, which by the way I read your post, you'll have to buy another side of skirting. Your photos appear that the rear of the skirts are too small to fit your rigging. It doesn't look like the rear jockeys will be symmetrical will the front jockeys; and, you won't be satisfied if you just make do to save money. Skirts for ranch saddles should be more full and give more weight distribution on the hores's back.

The other possible solution would be to use Stohlman's ring style rigging. It doesn't have the bulk that flatplate has; however, your flank cinch dee still will look too low in regards to your skirt. Again, this may just be the photo, but I can't count how many times that I settled on "good enough" just to kick myself later for actually settling for my frugality.

Ron

[rdl123]

Goldshot:

I am very inclined to agree with you - Seeing as this saddle should last a long time I'd like to get it as close to 'right' as I can. Do you have a depth you typically strive for at the point of the rear rigging?

For $200.00 I can get another side of HO - Money well spent when I consider that this saddle should be the last I every personally will need. (providing that it proves to be functional)

My current saddle measures 7" from where the cantle runs into the bars to the outside edge of the skirt...

Thanks for your help on this,

rdl

[rktaylor]

rdl,

I agree with Goldshot. Get it like you want even if it costs extra money. I made a lot of mistakes on my first saddle and kept going in most cases because I didn't know it was a mistake or I didn't want to start over (though I did completely redo my seat). However, I knew I would be building a second saddle and viewed the first one as educational (I mostly learn by doing). My first saddle will likely be on a rack and used sparingly a year from now and I will be riding a new one.

One mistake that I made was not doing a good enough job blocking my skirts. I won't make it again.

Have you cut your hand hole yet?

Thanks for continuing to share your progress.

Randy

[Goldshot Ron]

RDL,

After rereading your post I have a suggestion on your skirts. Don't cut your skirts to the finished pattern until after blocking them. Every maker has a different technique, but I cut my center line or top part of the skirts first to make sure I have enough room for the handhole screw and the rear lacing area. Then I block the skirts. After they dry, then I determine how the bottom line will look and the front and back lengths. With that said, I measured a saddle that I'm working on, and the distance from the corner of the cantle at the front down to the bottom of the skirts is 6 1/4 inches. I try to keep my flank cinch billet fold on the saddle skirt and off of the horse's side. My skirts are usually butterfly style, so I think you and I are similar in what we're trying to achieve.

Randy...my first saddle has brought me more customers than any other saddle that I've built. Don't sell yourself short with your first one.

Ron

[Goldshot Ron]

There are several saddle critiques on this site, and I would suggest to search them out. Troy West, Steve Mason, and Steve Brewer are three of the names that I'd search for. They are three really good saddle makers, and their comments are really helpful toward form and design.

Back to the shop, good luck!!!

[Aurelie]

.... Skirts for ranch saddles should be more full and give more weight distribution on the hores's back.....

:D

good rephrasing...that's what i had in my mind

[rdl123]

Goldshot:

Thanks for the help on this - I have decided that I am definitely re-making the skirts - I went through my leather last night and do not have enough left so definitely will re-order a side of HO.

You said you keep your billet fold off of the horse - How far from the skirts is the bottom of your rear rigging ring?

Also, Troy West, Steve Mason & Steve Brewer - Pretty sure I've read/re-read everything they've posted on here!! They are definitely inspiring. Steve Brewer - I used his tutorial for my ground seat - It worked out well!

Anyhow - Appreciate the time you've taken out of your day to respond to my problems - I will re-make these skirts and use your idea of cutting the skirts large and finishing once blocked - This'll be a sure fire way to get them right - Should've done it in the first place - I just had concerns with getting both sides identical... so I figured I'd pre-cut.

rdl

[Goldshot Ron]

The distance of the rear flank cinch attachment point in relationship to the saddle skirts will be determined by form, style (and rigging style), and function. It is my opinion that the fold of the flank cinch billet should pivot on the skirts and not the horse. So, I can't say that there is a definite rule for ring placement.

This is Tom Dorrance's old Wade saddle. The flank cinch is placed where I try to place my billets. The billet fold is pivoting on the skirt. If you search Dale Harwood you'll see some traditional views for Wade saddles and how he places rear billets. This should help you with your Wade.

Ron

[rdl123]

Here is a picture of the first flat plate I have put together - It still needs to be sewed up. Still need to makes the right side plate - Maybe this Saturday...

I've ordered more Hermann Oak from Ken over @ Caledon so that will allow me to cut new skirts.

If anyone knows of a good used sewing machine for saddle work I am definitely interested. I enjoy hand sewing, however, in view of efficiency I do want to pick up a machine at some point...

R