rktaylor Report post Posted January 28, 2014 RDL, Goldshot Ron said to buy theJeremiah Watt DVD and get e new perspective on saddle making. I watched the first 4 hours last night. The wife has plans tonight so I'll watch the second DVD. While it will take some time to absorb it all, it is very impressive. It's based on a Wade saddle, which I doubt I would build. However, the way he goes through the process, I think I could build anything. He really helps you understand how a saddle goes together. After I watch all of it, I will likely post a review on the DVD thread. Once I get my new drawdown stand and shop area done, I am starting on #2. Jeremiah says you should be working on at least two at the same time, but I am not sure I could cash flow that so I will stick with one at a time for now. Randy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamTill Report post Posted January 28, 2014 You timed your order well. Just went in to Caledon yesterday and he said he's closing up shop. VERY sad day...not to mention I needed an extra side of leather. May end up having to order out of the states until another Cdn supplier comes up (Ken said they were talking to another company in Calgary). Nice build BTW, good job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted January 28, 2014 Adam: Thanks for the heads up - I called Ken and it looks like they won't be bringing in anymore of the 13-15oz HO - Guess I'll call up Sheridan leather and try and get a side from them. Too bad about them closing - Ken is a great guy to deal with... R Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamTill Report post Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Adam: Thanks for the heads up - I called Ken and it looks like they won't be bringing in anymore of the 13-15oz HO - Guess I'll call up Sheridan leather and try and get a side from them. Too bad about them closing - Ken is a great guy to deal with... R Agreed! He had a few Horseshoe Brand tools on sale if you need anything. I was thinking of trying Hide House since they ship Fedex (UPS is a no-no for duties and us Canuks) and are cheaper than Sheridan I think. I need at least one side - apparently my layout skills need work, since I won't be able to get my seat where I want it. Have another tree coming in a few months from the Nikkels, so I might just go ahead and get three to avoid doubling up on shipping. Edited January 28, 2014 by AdamTill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted January 28, 2014 Adam: Yep, discovered that my layout skills really need work...by the time I am done this saddle Ill have gone through 4 hides which I know is way over what should be doable. However, as I am making my own patterns, when I rough cut I am oversizing fairly heavy - That won't be necessary the next time around as I will have hardboard patterns that will be very close to what I want... Also, next time I won't have to make two set's of skirts! The other thing is, I cut my rigging liner leathers out of fairly good hide instead of running them into the flankier parts of the hide. Figured it was worth it as this saddle will be with me for a while. I just bought a piece of 13-15oz HO from http://www.montanaleather.com Talked to Jamie. They are out of Billings MT. I would be interested to know how many professional saddle makers can get a complete saddle out of two hides...And would that include stirrup leathers too? R Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamTill Report post Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) I just bought a piece of 13-15oz HO from http://www.montanale...her.com Talked to Jamie. They are out of Billings MT. Mind my asking what shipping method they use and what the cost would be? I would be interested to know how many professional saddle makers can get a complete saddle out of two hides...And would that include stirrup leathers too? No professional here, but I would have come close aligning things a little differently. I needed an extra seat liner to account for a very flat bar profile, and I miscut my cantle filler once. I probably would have come close to getting a seat without those mistakes, and I cut my parts as Jeremiah Watt outlines on his video. Edited January 28, 2014 by AdamTill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted January 28, 2014 Adam: I live real close to the border and have a buddy just south of the line that let's me ship stuff to his place. Basically it'll ship there and the cost is minimal because it stays in the states. Coming up though the border, sometimes they make you pay GST & duty, other times the guy'll just wave you through - It's real random.. I am starting to think that investing in the Jeremiah Watt DVD's would be worth my while. That's one thing Dale Harwood doesn't go into a lot of detail on - Hide layout... Sure be interested to see some pictures of you rig Adam... R Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BondoBobCustomSaddles Report post Posted January 28, 2014 R, here are a couple of pages out of the Stohlman books that show layout of parts on hides. Sorry about the blurry pics, but; it's too damn cold to hold the camera perfectly still! At any rate you can get some idea of how to lay out, certain pieces on a hide and where not to lay them out to get the best durability for stirrup leathers, fenders, seat leather and so on. While this is not the only way you can get it done, it will help you get to that 2 hide goal. Personally, I usually get a little pickey on what I use and so it get's me a little past 2 hides to get one done, but; then I usually have several projects going on at the same time and so I just use what I need from a 3rd since I have it here anyways. If I were not so pickey, I probably could get 2 saddles without rear cinches, out of 3 hides, but; my customers expect the best from me, an that's what I give them. Hope that helps you some. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamTill Report post Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) Sorry, good point, since I'm doing a single rig I don't have flank cinches to cut out. Will update my other thread with photos in a little bit. Edited January 29, 2014 by AdamTill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted January 29, 2014 Bob: Thanks for that! Much appreciated, Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted January 30, 2014 Here are some pics of the rigging plate all sewed up... Going to put second plate together this Saturday hopefully. I hand sew @ only 5 stiches per inch - I figure I'll get good at that and then bump up to 7 or 8 per inch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rktaylor Report post Posted January 30, 2014 That looks great. I appreciate getting to follow your progress. I am resisting the urge to jump into my second one. I need to have a good plan first, but I think I will order a tree tomorrow. Randy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamTill Report post Posted January 30, 2014 Looking good! Which Carlos stamp is that? Stitching is looking good too, from what I can see. Going to be hand stitching myself, and given making up a set of zippered shotguns with all hand stitching was a big enough project, I've already noticed that the Tippman Boss is on sale. We'll see! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted January 30, 2014 Randy: What style of saddle do you plan to make for saddle #2? Who do you use for trees? I just ordered the Jeremiah Watt DVD's by the way (from country supply). Should be here in a couple weeks... Adam: The border stamp is just a tandy stamp - It seems to work... The basket weave is a barry king stamp, the 1/*" bead is a Barry King push beader - Use that in conjunction with a push beveler I picked up from Bruce Johnson. I've done a lot of hand stitching on chaps and chinks too - Good practice for saddle making. I also built a new rear cinch for my current saddle - Just wanted to make darn sure I had the patience to sew 7 linear feet by hand through heavy skirting leather before I up and started a saddle project. However, I've been thinking pretty hard a about a sewing machine too - What I have concluded is that there are two good options - Buy a Chinese built machine for about $2000.00+ from techsew or Leightons or similar or save up little longer and get a Pearson #6 for around $3000.00 - Apparently those Pearsons do a beautiful job and are simple enough to run...I know Steve Mason uses or has used one...and his work always looks perfect. I think that's the route I eventually want to go (unless I happen across something used for a great deal) For now though I'm going to be hand sewing... Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aurelie Report post Posted January 30, 2014 I would be interested to know how many professional saddle makers can get a complete saddle out of two hides...And would that include stirrup leathers too? R Easy depends on : 1/ what kind of saddle i do = flate plates or inskirts 2/ if i ruin something (seat/fork ) - crossing fingers here i have ruined nothing for a while now but it s an eventuallity and i would say : it depends how many saddles you've already done and how many leather scraps you have..... I am using 2 and a half sides or 2 sides not for so long.....time to build up my scraps stock (those natsty things are useful when building up a ground seat for example ) when you start from nothing : everything must be placed on your side.....hence you re using more leather.... The 2 first saddles i have built...i ruined 1 seat, 3 forks.....took me 3 sides for each saddles SO? keep faith You re doiing it right Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goldshot Ron Report post Posted January 30, 2014 Your tooling looks great. I like your edges. Also, the beading around your borders came out good. I think you're coming along really well. I've only a couple of suggestions on your rigging for the next saddle. The stitching on the plate extends a little too far up on the fork area. This may affect your ability to make skiving adjustments when you attach the plate to the tree. Also, if you add some filler pieces around your rigging plate bars, it will help with sewing when you pick up a machine. It will also give you a flatter appearance when finished, but I don't think the fillers will give you any extra strength, just visual. I've attached a photo to discribe what I'm suggesting; however, this is a different style of rigging plate. Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted January 31, 2014 Ron: Thanks for the compliments and for the tips...I'd read in Al Stohlman's books about the rigging plate plugs but when I watched Dale Harwoods DVD's I noticed he didn't use them - However, on saddle 2 I will use plugs...I think even just from an aesthetic standpoint... That rigging plate you show - Do you use that in flat plate rigs or for in skirt riggings? Nice clean looking plate. Ron L Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rktaylor Report post Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Ron L: I got my first tree from Batie's Custom Tree in Welch, OK. I have read a lot of posts about trees since then. I thought the tree was alright, but saw better ones at the Wichita Falls Saddle Show. I guess you don't know what you don't know. Cost for me is still a factor. Saddle #2 will be similar to this barrel saddle. It is lightweight and comfortable. My wife and daughter fight over it (can't have that). I plan to order a BWBR tree from Batie's to start. I finished the JW video last night. It was very good and I think it will help me think through the design of this saddle. The saddle will just be for pleasure riding, so weight is a primary factor. Goldshot: Thanks very much for all your tips and comments. I find them extremely valuable. Synthesizing information from multiple sources is challenging, but necessary. Thanks for chiming in. Randy Edited January 31, 2014 by rktaylor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goldshot Ron Report post Posted January 31, 2014 Ron, The last photo I used is a plate that I've used for inskirt rigging. On flatplate I use the 5053 plate. I mentioned the plugs so that the rigging looks flat, but it does help with sewing, especially when using a machine. I've recently seen where highend tack will use fillers on straps to account for the added dimensions of hardware when machine sewing up to the hardware to make the stitchline look neater. Randy, I'm no expert, but I hate reinventing the wheel. I'm currently working on what I call my California Style saddle. I've redoned the seat twice, completely remade the cantle back twice, and lord knows how the taps will go. It will have a fair amount of tooling, and design and appearance has been difficult. I've used techniques from: the Stohlman's, Troy West, J. Watt, Al Gould, Steve Brewer; and, designs from Pedro Pedrini, Cary Schwarz, Gordon Andrus, and Ray Holes Saddery to give credit to just a few people. So hurry up with your next saddle so I can use your ideas. Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BOB BRENNER Report post Posted February 2, 2014 If I may make a suggestion as to the installation of rigging hardware in regards to both flat plate and in-skirt rigging. I am of the opinion that all installations no matter what type of hardware must have plugs. When plugs are not used the saddle maker is automatically building a defect into the saddle. If plugs are not used a void is created between the two pieces of leather the thickness of the hardware. One of the characteristics of leather we as saddle makers like and use is leather’s ability to stretch and mold. When plugs are not used the leather will want to stretch and mold to fill in that void over time leaving the leather on top of the hardware proud of the rest of the leather. In picture below from this topic, where the rigging has been molded you can see the leading edge where the wear will incur. The area of the saddle where the flat plate or in-skirt rigging is located is the probably the highest point of wear due to the constant motion of the stirrup leathers moving back and forth. This is why on Dee rigged roping saddles a wear leather is used to protect the skirt from this inherent problem. Over the years I have saddles in my shop for repairs by both custom makers and the production makers to repair this problem. Some are just beginning to indicate a problem and some have been to the point of failure is just around the corner. In ones that were about to fail the wear was so bad the leather was worn completely through and the hardware was exposed. The use of plugs is not the complete cure for this problem. I have seen saddles with plugs installed and the wear was so heavy the heads of the rivets were partially worn away, causing a failure. So, any time one builds a saddle no matter what type of rigging that is used this inherent problem must be addressed in the design and building of the saddle. Respectfully, Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted February 3, 2014 Bob - I appreciate this insight - Being a complete amateur I was not aware of this - However, set out like you have explained it I can see the issue. I know of a maker in Maple Creek Saskatchewan who rectifies this issue by running a piece of 5oz latigo as a wear guard - I hadn't realized why he did this until now...It is easily replaceable and obviously he does this so it takes the wear - Not the rigging plate. I think I will do the same for this saddle. I will try to find a photo of the wear guard I am taking about... And, thanks Bob for the information - Proves that no matter how much you study this, there is always more information and tips to be had! Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted February 3, 2014 Here is a picture of the wear guard I was talking about above. Bob - I'd appreciate your thoughts about this - And, I will definitely be using plugs on saddle #2. rdl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oltoot Report post Posted February 3, 2014 I second the plug motion. I have, for many years now, used plugs to prevent any "bumps" for something to rub against and invite wear. To the same end, I try to shape skirt, seat, rigging so that they all end in a different place and provide as many long slopes and as few abrubt "bumps" where stirrup leather, fender move. It means a little more leather and must be done thoughtfully so as not to end up with something too thick for your stitcher to handle but has paid off in the comparitively long lifes of skirt and plate rigs so constructed. And for the same reason, I avoid "doming" rivits in that area choosing instead a flat finish to the heads, even slightly recessed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdl123 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 I'd like to know - Do you install your riggings over swell cover or under swell cover? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oltoot Report post Posted February 9, 2014 Plate under, skirt over, front rings go on first before anything else Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
