Questions About Design And Balance...

[CAVE]

You can certainly make high-ride holsters -- most of mine ride a good 3/4-1-inch higher than the average pancake -- but you must design the holster so that t has the structural strength to ride up there without "bouncing." For example, the back on my high-ride pancake holster is laminated out of two layers of (fairly thick) leather. That gives the holster the stiffness it needs to ride high, like this...

http://www.malabargu...sters/high-ride

BTW: It sure looks like you have a lot of forward cant on the pistol. That's kind of counterproductive for the vertical draw technique that is taught at most places today.

tk

This is somewhat encouraging. I was intending this holster to be "high ride" with my initial design. I didn't know what I wanted or anything, but I looked at a lot of pictures...after this thread I compared mine to even more pictures (even drawing lines across other designs for belt position) and didn't see a huge difference to what seemed like a very popular holster design. What was so different about all these high rides that seemed sometimes even more off balance than mine? I think now I am understanding some of the differences and trade offs better. What I really want (now that I've practiced a little) is a better balanced and comfortable carry. This may be somewhat routine for some of you guys, but being new I feel like this is great and very useable information that I didn't have.

As to cant, I have more to learn. This position came from mock drawing and reholstering with an effort to find comfort.

Edited November 13, 2013 by CAVE

[malabar]

Cave,

Fundamentally, holsters are very simple items -- just a couple of pieces of leather folded and sewn together. But as you suggest, the difference between a great holster and a crappy holster can often be in details that are hard for the uninitiated to discern. There aren't necessarily pat answer to some of the questions you're asking. Understanding how those elements work together is part of your development as a holstermaker.

There are a a lot of elements that go into the making of a first-rate concealment holster. As a firearms instructor, one of my gripes is that students often train one way (1911 in a 3-oclock, strong side presentation, drop-holster), and carry an entirely different way (Ruger LC9 in a behind-the-hip IWB). This is really counter productive, because all the skills and muscle-memory they build up runs counter to their daily practice.

A good concealment holster should be designed from the very start for a particular type of presentation and a particular location on the belt. Many can be moved around, but they are generally ideal in only a limited range of locations.

The FBI was the group most responsible for requiring significant cant in a holstered pistol, thinking that the cant made it faster to bring the gun onto target. This is pretty much an outmoded concept today. The growth of action shooting sports and tactical police teams has led widespread acceptance of a vertical draw and punch-out technique. If you can get a copy of the NRA's guide to Personal Protection in the Home, it's really well-explained there.

Leather thickness plays a major role in how the holster works, but even more so, the "tempering" of the leather is critical. There are folks who sell sell leather holsters that are hardened like kydex, and folks who sell holsters that are as soft as limp noodles. Most are somewhere in between -- but the hardness of the holster is a critical part of the overall design.

A high ride on the belt is chiefly a feature of concealment holsters -- it brings the pistol into the hollow of the body. This also aids with retention.

This is my take on the elements of a good holster...

http://www.malabargunleather.com/which-holster

Other might have different ideas, but I've seen several of the oldtimers around here espouse similar ideas.

tk

Again thank you for the comments. I did some balance testing with a few guns. 40 cal bullets obviously made a much bigger difference than the 22, but having the clip in and full did change it up for both guns. High cap mags vs standard were surprisingly much different too. I am really enjoying this process and all the practical advice is helping a lot. I hope to start the improved sr22 holster in the next few days. Hopefully I can also improve on the craftsmanship a little.

Is there a relation to belt position (vertically) and ease of drawing the weapon? I don't mean me being able to reach, grip, and draw. I mean how the belt acts on the holster and how the holster acts on the gun. How does the leather surrounding the gun stretch, collapse, or move during drawing the weapon and can this be affected by belt position or cant? Does leather thickness play a big role in this? Is this even something you can explain over the internet without trail and error?

[CAVE]

I am still practicing. This one is the first version for my pt24/7 in 40cal. I am actually thrilled with it for what it is. I'm sure there are some things I can improve on which is why I'm posting it here for critique. The stitching and finish could be much better so I continue to practice. I am pretty happy with the balance, but it isn't perfect.

I really would like to move the gun down on the belt another 1/4"-3/8". As it sits, my small hands can fit to grip the gun fine, but I don't have much room to play with if I want to move the belt location. Are there any designs or ideas that can do this without adding more cant to the holster?

Also, a question on sight channels. You can see I have a molded channel that is tapered on the front half of the gun. I have seen a few designs where this is molded all the way to the rear of the gun (top of the holster). Are there any benefits of problems with one design or the other? My half length seems to work fine, but I don't have anything to compare to.

I used a stiffer leather on this one too, and am much happier with the end product. So far I have just been using leather I got from a retired leather worker. I haven't ordered any of my own so that is the next step (I'm almost out of practice leather). I have been reading some threads on choosing leather, but I would love to hear some further opinions on weight and cuts to order. Thanks for the critiques.

Edited November 25, 2013 by CAVE

[chiefjason]

I run the top of the belt at about the rear of the ejection port. About everyone that has one likes the way it rides, from an LC9 to a full size 1911.

I do a full length sight channel on most. Pros, no drag on front sight. Cons, if you don't roll over the slide the gun can get looser.

And be sure you are leaving the mag release uncovered. Can't tell from here, other than the front is over what would be an ambi release. I try to leave it open on the front and back.

[camano ridge]

Cave, that is an improvement over the first one pictured in this post. I can't tell is there a stitch line right above the slide? As chiefjason said you might want to cut away a little leather right behind the trigger guard to uncover the mag release. If you don't depending on the gun there is a chance that in holstering the weapon you could hit the mag release against the holster. Nothing more embarassing then pulling out your pistol and having the mag hit the floor at your feet. Keep working on it, with each one you will see an improvement and as you learn the basics you will become your own worse critic and continue to find things to improve.

[SooperJake]

I am new to this and just finished my first for this ruger sr22. I am very happy with the results for a first, but have some questions. I get a little "bounce" from the gun on the belt if I walk fast or jog. I attribute this to the high carry (conceal style) holster. I assume that if I raise my belt slots on the holster body, dropping the gun a little on the belt, this will balance out the weight a little. Do you all have some advice about fitting holster style and balance to gun weight and shape? I realize there are probably an infinite number of combos. I'm just looking for some things to try. Can I get a rock solid hold/balance on the gun but keep the high carry of the conceal style pancake? This gun is pretty light, but I'm going to start one for my taurus pt24/7 next and want to make some improvements to make it ride just right.

Criticism encouraged beyond just the style or cut. I still haven't applied oil or finish, just dye. I'm working on some different burnishing methods too and then dye the edges again.

Try burnishing a freshly dyed edge on some scrap leather and you will realize a kind of magic happens. For dye, I like the Fiebing's oil.

[CAVE]

It is hard to tell from the picture, but yes there is a stitch line above the slide. I'm trying to keep them tight to the gun as best I can. Also, the mag release is for right handed only and the back plate is cut around it. I left it higher on the front plate only.

Thanks for the help, I may try one with a full length site channel. What do you mean by role over the slide? Molding?

More on the site channels and leather purchase?

[chiefjason]

With the full length channel it's more important to catch the top edge of the slide so the gun does not move front to back. I've had it happen with smaller single stacks in kydex more so than leather. What I do is mold really well between the sight channel and the slide on the top side to make sure the top of the slide has something to rest on. It's probably even more important with flat backs since the entire pocket for the pistol is on the front panel. With a standard holster you have the pocket on the front and back panels. But I prefer flat backs now.

It's good that you worked around the mag release. But if you end up making them for others, you probably want to expose it front and back. You never know what kind of mods someone has done, and ambi releases are an easy one for most guns.

[jbossartcustomgunleather]

Leather choice will largely determine the success of a holster. I use Wickett and Craig of America 8-10oz Steer hide saddle skirting, it is terrible to cut because it is hard and tight grained, but produces an incredible product. Extreme high ride is no problem provided the belt Is good.

[Jimbob]

Some of my stuff....look how high the front of the gun is covered by leather....then dropes down in an arc above the trigger guard!

Maybe that helps.....

Will add pics,,,,, sorry