Do Hermes Workers "cast The Stitch"

[DavidL]

I can't seem to get that hermes looking stitch when I hand stitch on vegtan. The problem before on other pieces was that the leather was too thin and the thread wasn't gripping in. Now I changed the leather and the stitch on the backside has no angle. Another thread on this forum I read was about hermes saddle stitching and a member wrote that the there was no casting of the stitches the hermes worker done.

Is he casting the stitch?

Im trying to achieve that type of stitch but the backside is very flat like in the video. Are hermes bags stitched differently than the saddles?

26 seconds you can see the back stitches and the separation of each stitch is roughly 2 mm. when i stitch the backside the leather will close up and the stitch will end up flat yet the front is still angled.

Edited April 24, 2014 by DavidL

[JDM]

I don't know about Hermes leather. Doesn't look like it to me in that video.

Here is a video of more obviously "throwing the loop":

[mrtreat32]

what does casting the stitch do exactly? I tried it on a piece of scrap leather last night and it made the backside a bit more slanted instead of straight on my sample. I did it a bit different from the video posted above though. In the video he was wrapping it around towards his body and it looked like 2 times. I did it away and only went around once.

Is it strictly done to get a angled look on the back?

[Matt T]

Yes, it is for the angle. I also find I can have a more consistent look to the stitch line this way.

[mrtreat32]

Yes, it is for the angle. I also find I can have a more consistent look to the stitch line this way.

Yeah I can't tell what its doing exactly but it seemed to work last night when I tried it.

I pretty much followed "the leather working handbook" instructions as best I could. left needle(back side) through first. Right needle passed through behind first needle while holding the thread back so it stayed in place and wouldn't pierce thread. As right needle is emerging through back side take thread in left hand and wrap it over the right handle needle once. pull tight.

I was wrapping it around once only. Does wrapping it around in the other direction or more than once change the look at all? Its pretty crazy how small differences in the sewing technique can completely change the look.

Edited April 30, 2014 by mrtreat32

[Matt T]

I could imagine that it might help to wrap twice on thick leather in order to get the same look as one wrap on thinner leather; never tried it though.

[JDM]

The guy in the video is wrapping it around once, forming a single overhand knot (first part of tying your shoe). He goes around more than it might appear at first because he is putting his right needle behind the left needle. So he needs a full turn.

My understanding is this doesn't really add anything to strength. Advantages are the diagonal slant to the stitches, possibly more consistent appearance of the stitches, plus a knot can help prevent a stitch from loosening before you sew the next one.

[papaw]

I think if you wrap it to your body the stitch will be the opposite of the front stitch and away from your body and the stitchs will be the same front and back, that is casting a stitch (throwing) not pulling a stitch.. I think that is what i read somewhere, not that the shop so can't try it right now..

Edited May 2, 2014 by papaw

[aloisius]

My technique is nearly identical to the first video (I learned from an ex-Hermes employee). It is not casted. And yes, it leaves somewhat flatter stitches on the back.

As I understand it, some years ago Hermes switched to pricking bags on both sides to ensure angled stitching on the backside as well as the front.

[DavidL]

very cool insight! I also do both sides and its so much easier.

[mrtreat32]

My technique is nearly identical to the first video (I learned from an ex-Hermes employee). It is not casted. And yes, it leaves somewhat flatter stitches on the back.

As I understand it, some years ago Hermes switched to pricking bags on both sides to ensure angled stitching on the backside as well as the front.

Yeah thats interesting.

I have been going between not casting and casting the stitch but haven't yet tried pricking items on both sides. Do you need a inverse pricking iron for the back? Seems like the holes would get real big if punching both sides but Im gonna give it a shot on some scrap leather.

I think they cast the stitch sometimes on certain items and other times they don't. I wish I knew what determined if they did it or not to get a sense of the difference. You can see here at 50seconds in they are casting the stitch. Awesome movie btw

http://www.lesmainsdhermes.com/en/film

[DavidL]

I hit it with the same iron and match it up, if done correctly the you won't be able to recognize which side was stitched from the front or back.

I could be wrong but I believe that he didn't cast the thread/ throw the loop since he went went forward instead of backwards so the threads aren't tangled together. I wonder if hermes does cast the thread, but most items I seen look like they don't have a cast.

Edited August 4, 2014 by DavidL

[mrtreat32]

I hit it with the same iron and match it up, if done correctly the you won't be able to recognize which side was stitched from the front or back.

I could be wrong but I believe that he didn't cast the thread/ throw the loop since he went went forward instead of backwards so the threads aren't tangled together. I wonder if hermes does cast the thread, but most items I seen look like they don't have a cast.

To me it looks like he is looping the left side over the right. I think there are other clips in the movie where you see them doing it as well.

I tried briefly hitting a sample piece of leather on both sides and the results were pretty good but its strange because by doing that with the same iron you are putting 2 different angles into the leather /////// \\\\\\\\\\ to create a xxxxxx.

After I read that you do that I tried something different altogether. I made the usual marks with the pricking iron on one side but instead of stabbing the awl through the front I did it on the reverse side which kept the slants going in one direction but made clean holes on both sides. The results were similar to pricking both sides but I kept the single direction of the slant.

The back of the leather when I use the traditional method comes out decent but the act of punching through and using a awl pushes the back side out a tiny bit not allowing the stitching to lay perfectly flat or even.

[whipstitchwallets]

To me it looks like he is looping the left side over the right. I think there are other clips in the movie where you see them doing it as well.

I tried briefly hitting a sample piece of leather on both sides and the results were pretty good but its strange because by doing that with the same iron you are putting 2 different angles into the leather /////// \\\\\\\\\\ to create a xxxxxx.

Hey Mr. treat,

What you describe above is how I settled on doing mine; it simply seems to work best for me. Check out this Hermes wallet: http://www.luxuryexchange.com/shop/hermes/authentic-hermes-epsom-wallet-new/prod_3061.html

Look at the direction of the slant on the inside bottom left. Now compare to the closed front bottom row (the same row other side). To me it seems they are in opposite directions (the xxxxx as you mentioned). If I'm wrong and the opposite is true, I think this still answers your question lol

Best

Joe

[mrtreat32]

Hey Mr. treat,

What you describe above is how I settled on doing mine; it simply seems to work best for me. Check out this Hermes wallet: http://www.luxuryexchange.com/shop/hermes/authentic-hermes-epsom-wallet-new/prod_3061.html

Look at the direction of the slant on the inside bottom left. Now compare to the closed front bottom row (the same row other side). To me it seems they are in opposite directions (the xxxxx as you mentioned). If I'm wrong and the opposite is true, I think this still answers your question lol

Best

Joe

Im looking at the main picture and I see the slants going in opposite directions but we don't know what side they went through since that is a different piece of leather. Maybe Im looking at the wrong part

But they do sell reverse pricking irons with teeth going the opposite way. Which could be what you are describing. You can do different parts of whatever project with the 2 different irons to create a different look with the stitching http://www.fineleatherworking.com/leather-tools/portmanteau-pricking-irons

If your stitching looks good with how you are doing it than I would keep at it but I think if they were to punch both sides they would use a standard pricing iron and than a reverse so that the holes lined up perfectly.

Honestly there are so many different techniques and ways of stitching leather goods that it seems almost endless but Im always trying to improve so I find this conversation very interesting and look forward to experimenting with different methods.

[DavidL]

I believe that isn't how the inverse iron is used. Its used traditionally so the corners instead of the last stitch going to the top of the hole it ends up at the bottom making a cleaner corner. Perhaps hermes uses the inverse? instead of the same iron on both sides.

With the different angles the back stitch sits angled like the front so It works well. For some reason with a single angle the back side is consistent but angled at 15 degrees.

[JLSleather]

Casting? Throwing? Okay, seriously .. is this some kind of "alternative lifestyle" thing I'm not privy to? Hmmm?

[whipstitchwallets]

Im looking at the main picture and I see the slants going in opposite directions but we don't know what side they went through since that is a different piece of leather. Maybe Im looking at the wrong part

But they do sell reverse pricking irons with teeth going the opposite way. Which could be what you are describing. You can do different parts of whatever project with the 2 different irons to create a different look with the stitching http://www.fineleatherworking.com/leather-tools/portmanteau-pricking-irons

If your stitching looks good with how you are doing it than I would keep at it but I think if they were to punch both sides they would use a standard pricing iron and than a reverse so that the holes lined up perfectly.

Honestly there are so many different techniques and ways of stitching leather goods that it seems almost endless but Im always trying to improve so I find this conversation very interesting and look forward to experimenting with different methods.

Hey,

I meant compare the main picture to the second picture. You can see both sides (front and back/inside) of the same stitch line and they look like they are going opposite directions.

[mrtreat32]

Hey,

I meant compare the main picture to the second picture. You can see both sides (front and back/inside) of the same stitch line and they look like they are going opposite directions. :dunno:I

Its possible thats what they do. I just imagine that if you punch ////// and than \\\\\\ you're creating a round hole in the center where they meet.

I dunno. haha. too many possibilities!

Also we need pics in here!

I want to see the results everyone is getting. Its not that I don't think it works but if the results are pretty amazing I may convert to punching both sides!

[DavidL]

Not sure which is front or back side..

Also easier since the hit from the iron on the backside makes sure that there aren't any blowout holes, just even impressions that the awl can slide through.

[mrtreat32]

Not sure which is front or back side..

Also easier since the hit from the iron on the backside makes sure that there aren't any blowout holes, just even impressions that the awl can slide through.

That does look pretty nice. Both look the same.

I get a tiny bit of blowout sometimes when I use the iron to mark the holes and than follow through with the awl. When I punch all the way through its usually not much of a issue.