Malicious Customer,advice Needed.

[Redochre]

Hi there.

I sold a wallet on etsy a few weeks back & I was a little suspicious because the address listed was a trading address in an industrial estate but I went along with it because a sale is a sale.

After the wallet arrived I had a less than polite message saying that there was not enough pockets & they had been sewn too tightly, claiming she couldn't get the cards in.

I pointed out that I state how many pockets there are, that the pockets would be slightly tight but will stretch with use & that the last picture on the listing was of the wallet with cards in it.

After that she said it was her husband who wanted more pockets & she changed her story to instead of being unable to insert cards she now finds them too difficult to get out. At this point she was demanding a refund.

I contacted etsy because I found the whole thing suspicious & they said to go with my instincts & they would back me.

She has now threatened me with a negative review against my shop. Which is blackmail & slander. There is no way I'm willing to tolerate that.

If I had made a mistake then I would gladly refund, instantly, Id even refund or exchange if she simply changed her mind. I just don't understand the rudeness & the lies. This is only my 4th sale & I'm very disheartened by it.

Apolagies if my typing is poor, I'm using phone & the keypad is glitchy.

I would love any feedback or advise please.

Andy.

[camano ridge]

It sounds to me like probably her husband was not happy she bought it and now she is trying to come up with an excuse to get her money refunded. Don't feel dishartened you are dealing with people, and from time to time things like this will happen. The only reason you feel dihartened is because you take pride in your work and feel you did everything right. One of the problems with ebay, etsy etc. is the feed back, you can feel like you are hostage to it and have to do things you don't want to. You have two obvious choices give the money back or accept the negative feed back and move on ( you have already told ETSY what is going on). Be aware that even if you give the money back you may still get negative feed back from someone like her. Also as an aside do you have a return policy stated and is that return policy being adhered to by both of you? If you do not have a return policy you might want to create one.

Edited June 28, 2014 by camano ridge

[Kustom]

Just have her return it for a refund. Good news is you're getting the jerks out of the way up front. I've had over 1500 sales on esty and only two nasty customers.

[blue duck]

You should ask etsy about thier comment policy. Some sites (not ebay for sure) are willing to stand by you. Sounds like they might also. If you get bad feedback for unreasonable reasons, they will/can delete it or do something to protect you from this badwill (how many mistakes in English does that sentence have?). Yes, there are jerks and you found one right off. Just don't let them sour you. Enjoy what you do because when you start stressing about things like this, it then becomes a dreadful job. You don't really want one of those now do you?

[WinterBear]

You should only offer a full refund only if the wallet is in perfect condition and can be resold. If she's unwilling to do so because she's ripped the pockets by jamming 3 or more cards in each pocket, she may go away at this point.

I and several other people I know have had experience have had experience with someone who screws up something they've bought, and have gone on the attack to try and recoup the money that they've spent now that the item is ruined. They screwed it up within hours of buying it, but they are demanding their money back because of their carelessness, not because of bad work.

[barehandcustoms]

As long the item is in the same shape that I sent it then I always give full refunds even if I have to cover the shipping. It's just not worth the time of going back and worth with someone over specifics or combating false reviews of your product. Sometimes you have to eat a few dollars and move on. I used to get bitter about it when people got upset over things clearly in the description. Now a days I just offer full refunds if they aren't completely happy with a product.

The last thing I want to do is sell someone a product they are not happy with. Even if they are being overly picky or didn't read the description. Just issue a refund a move on. Custom or personalized items are a whole different story though.....

Just know those types of customers are very rare so don't be discouraged.

Edited July 1, 2014 by barehandcustoms

[JLSleather]

Etsy is a strange place. I did a search earlier today and found a couple of people selling very basic, very simple projects that cost $3 to make for $50 range. And selling HUNDREDS of them. You couldn't GIVE me one of those things (thank you anyway). And right next to their listings, someone else with the SAME item, in the same (pathetic) color, done the same way -- none sold. No accounting for it that I can see, but then - not really my concern.

Make what you like to make. Try to keep in mind that over there, you're dealing with people who are often shopping for cheap plastic jewelery. It's almost nonsensical to even list anything leather over there (though I know a chubby girl who does).

[NVLeatherWorx]

Having looked at what you make and reading the details of your items listings on Etsy I would have to agree that you have found that "chronic complainer" that we have all dealt with before, and are sure to deal with time and again. However, you do need to put some policies on your shop so that people know right up front exactly what to expect when conducting business with you and how to PROPERLY address issues or complaints. You can take a look at my shop and see what I mean about having straight forward policies in place. You can search Etsy for RHardieCustomLeather; also look at some of the other shops that are offering similar items and see what their policies are.

Good luck on this one and if you were to decide on leaving this particular person standing in the rain with the wallet that she now owns I don't think anyone would say it was a bad decision. I have had people comment on how tight the card pockets are when brand new and I have had them complain about how stiff a belt or other thicker leather item is at the beginning, yet every single one of them has always been told up front to expect certain things and when they start crying about it I just remind them of the conversations and posted information in policies and listings and ask them if they recall them. When they say they do, and they just about always do, I ask them what the course of action should be then being as they have knowledge of what the policies are and that their order submission was acknowledgement of such policies and posted information and warnings to which they typically respond, "it is my fault for not providing the right information", or, "I wouldn't refund the money in this case either". There is something to be said for being the one who owns the business and sets the rules, if you make them to protect your business then you have to enforce them to ensure your business is protected.

[Studio-N]

If you used paypal for your etsy payment, you may not have a choice. Being an eBay company, they will NOT protect the seller.

All the whiner has to do is well, whine to paypal and open a case and paypal will yank the money from your account.

I'd say have them return it (part of the condition in the case if opened), and refund it and move on.

[dcobranding]

Etsy is owned by eBay? Seriously? I didn't know that.

[electrathon]

Etsy is owned by eBay? Seriously? I didn't know that.

PayPal is owned by eBay

[Redochre]

Thank you everyone for your replies. You all have valid points for both sides of the argument.

Things have escalated slightly, she has opened a case & is calling me nuts,crazy,insane & mad as a hatter. She is really trying to make things personal now... I'm guessing its an attempt to anger me & make me say something stupid.

I've reported her to Etsy & they said they are going to investigate her practices.

There is no way I'm going to bend over now & refund her. I know my product is sound, she is being nasty for the sake of it. As far as I'm concerned the wallet is now used because its had her husband's business & credit cards in it. I also feel this isn't the first time she's tried something like this, she's got away with it before so she's trying it again.

Lessons learned from this?

1. Low prices benefit no one. Its time to get the best leather I can't afford & charge more for my products.

2. Update my shop policies ASAP.

3. Leather worker is great resource.

[Studio-N]

Etsy is owned by eBay? Seriously? I didn't know that.

Sorry it wasn't worded right. Paypal is an ebay company. If you use paypal for the etsy payment you're screwed if the customer opens a case against you.

ebay/paypal do NOT protect the seller.

[Redochre]

I hear what your saying studio. Paypal & fleabay are great if your customer but awful if you're a vendor.

They pretty much can do what they want, they have no real competition. Basically they run a monopoly .

[NVLeatherWorx]

@Redochre: It sounds like she is really trying to make life difficult for you on this item. It also sounds like she is very practiced at this type of conduct so I am sure that Etsy will find that she is not new to this game and will shut her down. What everyone is saying about PayPal is accurate, they won't support the seller but they will darn sure go out of their way to make the pathetic cry baby in the corner feel all warm and fuzzy about their lack of understanding regarding what they actually purchase. Kind of sounds like our government here in the U.S. doesn't it?

Keep you head high, you will get through this. And I agree with you on calling the item used now, sounds only fair at this point. Just make sure you get those policies together so you have that as an extra support mechanism, Etsy is big on the policies thing but they will go above and beyond to protect a seller because they have actually figured it out that it is we who sell that bring the success, not the buyer who is more often than not just out to find their next sucker.

And yes, you should be charging more for your work. When I saw how low your prices were I couldn't believe it but we all have find our place and it isn't always so easy to figure it out. We need to be able to provide an affordable product but we also need to ensure that we can maintain our business operation and to me, the first focus is on the business being able to support itself. Unfortunately, we are going up against some of our fellow Etsians who are just trying to dump cheap product at or below the actual cost (and I say that because the vast majority of the handmade leather goods you will find in those shops are kits which we all know cost more than if you cut it yourself from raw materials) and these sellers are what I put into the Hobby category. For me the Hobby category is anyone, regardless of craft, that just does nothing but make and make and make and make and then decides to put their stuff up on some webpage or group shop environment like Etsy so that they can get enough money to purchase another 25 pack of the kits and start all over and repeat the same old designs over and over again. Custom made is totally different market and can be done even using a pre-cut kit. What makes it different is you open the door for the potential client to personalize that specific item to the product that THEY want, not just limited to WHAT you have made. I tell visitor to my little mobile shop every time I am at a craft fair or other type of event that if you want something that someone has made to THEIR liking then go to a big box store and get it but if you want something MADE for YOU to YOUR liking, sit down and let's talk.

Good luck, and keep us posted how this goes.

[rawcustom]

I just have to second the price point opinion. You are doing yourself no favors by low balling your work. You need to charge a fee that covers your expense and time if you plan to keep selling. The other fact is this, the people willing to seek you out for being the cheapest are always the hardest to satisfy. In my fulltime job the absolute most complaints I get is from a product/service offered to the public for free. FREE as in no cost, zero dollars, and zero cents. The people who seek out the freebies seem to have the natural personality to complain about anything and everything. Charge a realistic price and you won't work yourself out of business and you will be limiting your customer base to educated, typically respectful buyers.

[Pablo27]

I was in business for myself for 17 years dealing with the public and rawcustom is right on. The people that pay the least want the most. It is a lot harder to learn to say no and back away than almost anything else. What is you time worth in messing with her? You would be better off to spend that time on customers that are paying a decent price. It boils down to being right or being happy. Toxic customers just continue to suck the life out of your business and time. Good luck.

[NVLeatherWorx]

@rawcustom and @Pablo27: Amen guys. That is the short and sweet of it. Anyone reading this topic, if you want a great example of what these guys just said take a look at how the larger majority of Americans are complaining about everything. Want to know a little secret? The ones that are complaining are the ones who aren't doing anything to contribute to the system in the first place. Nothing like biting the hand that feeds you is there?

[ConradPark]

Not sure that I'll add something not already mentioned by others, just wanna say that while you obviously have done nothing wrong and I completely understand your feelings I can only advice that learn and go on.

With that I mean that having a shop on sites like Etsy and Ebay means that things like this happens.

And your prices are way, way too low! Also within EU and even when you sell through Etsy, by law the customer has right to cancel and return within 14 days, regardless your opinion on it. In the long run it's better to be polite, refund, and forget about it. Specially considering your low price anyway - not worth it!

And if you are going to continue to on Etsy you better be prepared for more of things like this, it's just part of how it works. If you really don't like it I suggest that you put in your efforts in your own website instead! However you still have to know how to deal with trouble customers!

Finally, if you would get a bad review, just close your shop and open a new one as your shop is new and you only have a few sales so far. With your quality of work you would get the same number of sales within a few weeks! Another hint is with each sale send a note (with your item) that states your return policy (make sure it follows the law and Etsy's policy) and encourage that they let you know if they are less than satisfied. While this might sound counter productive it actually make you seem more professional and able to deal with problems and that make some people not to bother if it's just a minor issue. On top of that DO tell them to write a review on your product - not the postal service (this is important, otherwise you'll just have to suffer if the postal service screw up and Royal Mail often does!), that way you quickly get more reviews on your shop. Most people won't bother otherwise!

Anyway, don't be disheartened by this incident - just concentrate on doing more of your fine work!

[TXAG]

What I do to combat things like this is preemptively block them whenever possible. For instance, if I get a PITA buyer that asks a lot of stupid, dumb questions that are already covered in my listings, they go straight on my block list. Oh, I'll go ahead and take time to answer their questions (AGAIN) alright, but they're not going to be able to buy from me...at least on ebay. I'm not sure if etsy will allow you to block buyers.

Then they get a rude awakening if/when they ever decide to stop with the tire kicking and go ahead and actually BUY something...they can't. At that point, they will send me a plaintive message and that's when I direct them to my website.

Works great for me.

Oh, and I also don't give away my work for almost nothing. I price it accordingly and that keeps out the riff-raff for the most part. There is the occasional PITA customer still, but not as many as when I sold cheaper items. I don't do that anymore and now I don't have as many bad customers.

[Redochre]

Again thank you everyone for your great advice,I would like to add quotes and reply but I'm using a tablet & it will get stroppy if I try.

*UPDATE* Etsy have told the customer to send photographic proof that the wallet differs from the description. Considering the photos of the trifold are of the actual wallet that was sent she would be really pulling miracles if she managed that.

A note about pricing.... I charged what I thought my quality of craftsmanship is worth & I had the leather for a good price.

[ConradPark]

Seems like it's gonna get sorted to your favor, good! About your pricing, while it is good to be modest and I'm sure that from a customer perspective most will be thrilled (about your prices) I think all the people saying that you price your stuff too low - including myself - look at it from another perspective. To put it bluntly it is prices like that, that make it difficult for leather workers that doesn't do this as a hobby to make a living. If your stuff was simpler, machine sewn with no edge work, fine - but no professional (meaning doing leather work for a living) would be able to put in that effort and sell it for those prices (unless it was wholesale). And this is meant as a compliment!

[DavidL]

selling it too low will make people think that is the going rate for these goods. You can't just go from a piece of leather is this price and it takes this long to do it so thats my price. The fact that its a wallet gives it some value, well made gives it value, handmade gives it value, and made not in China gives it value. If you don't charge for that its the same as your leather costing 10 dollars and you write it in your costs as 5 dollars, your throwing away money that people are willing to pay, which also hurts you. It gives consumers the thought that made in USA by hand is the same price as made in China..

I've seen this done from a seller on etsy which is based in thailand. The redeeming factor for him only is that the currency of their money is less so they can sell for that price and still do really well for themselves. However it sets the standard so low that its almost ridiculous for others to compete and some do compete and have to charge the same price. So etsy is more known now as a place to find cheap stuff, like 5 dollar jewelry and 15- 35 dollar wallets, 5 dollars socks and what not. You can still find some places that sell at 120 a iPhone case or 150 that do well, so theres still that.

[ConradPark]

David L, while I do agree with you in general about crafters not putting enough value into the products, I just wish people would stop pointing finger to a specific country or region when it comes to blaming that things getting sold for under cutting prices. While of course this exist from the countries you're mentioning, the same thing happens everywhere including Canada and USA. Now I'm very aware that this is a sensitive subject and I have covered this discussion elsewhere so I am not trying to start a fight or accusing any one, it's just my own 'two cents' that blaming specifics about a general subject is not that different than when people start blaming specific religious people or mentioning that it would have to do with the color of skin. Dangerous way of reasoning as there are plenty of people out there that take that kind of talk to pervert their own ignorant thinking. Take UK and Etsy for example, while the majority of the people that sells leather goods (or anything else) are not maybe the cheapest on that platform I would say that 99% (give or take) are still selling it for under the value for similar things sold on the high street or even the markets in London, and now I'm including the bad stuff too. This is because as already mentioned, most of those sellers are just doing it as a hobby or as a way to get some extra income. It's frustrating for the professionals but at the same time this is how life works everywhere. Those 99% have nothing to do with the asian market. And this is from one nation i Europe that has a LARGE presence on Etsy. Now, I hope neither you or any one else are not taking any offense as that was not my intent.

Edited July 13, 2014 by ConradPark

[NVLeatherWorx]

@ConradPark

No offense taken on that and I agree that there are even some leather workers right here in the US that are doing their fair share of the "low ball" price game which does, as you so graciously stated, make it very difficult for a true Professional Craftsman/Maker to sell their products at a fair and reasonable price to sustain business operations. However, the comments regarding anything that is made in a foreign country, China and the bulk of Asia especially, is intended to bring attention to the practices from within those regions to flood the market with cheap priced, and to put it very frankly, cheaply made products, which achieved through their "slave labor" styled practices. That is not to say that every leather worker from those areas, or any other area for that matter, is involved in that type of practice as I know some true Professionals within our craft that charge properly for their products and they too have the same issues that we do and they also make the same comments regarding the difficulty to try and compete against these practices. The main thing here is that we all have to accept the fact that no matter where we are in the world, there is someone just "down the road from us" that is selling similar type items for way below what we do. Whether they are a hobby worker or a large corporation that just pumps out substandard quality items to flood the market with volume, they exist and it is only fitting that they be called out for their practices.

With regards to the whole Etsy thing, they are just one of the several outlets where we can find the cheap, substandard quality, flood of garbage that is on sale for below "rock bottom" pricing. I frequently notice that most of what you find from leather workers on Etsy is nothing more than the popular kits from Tandy or other such sources and that the majority of the designs/patterns are what actually come with the kit. These items are even assembled using the thread and/or lace that is included with the kit (and I can tell you for a fact that these are not their premium materials). Most of the finished products are barely priced over the actual retail price that was paid for the kits, and a few have some more realistic prices that reflect the level of detail put into the finished product. The bottom line here is that anyone trying to make a living on using kits as their source of materials is not a professional, regardless of the level of craftsmanship that is put into the finished product. A professional craftsman selects every piece used in the fabrication of a finished product from raw materials which in our case is sides, shoulders, skins, etc. and we have these items readily available. A professional is always finding new ways to make an item and the majority of patterns (product patterns that is) are their own creations or at least collaborations. We always find a way to improve our product and we frequently change up our product lines just to make sure that we can maintain our niche market. This is what justifies a proper price and nobody who is a true Professional should ever think twice about their pricing. We conduct business professionally and we are fair with our clients but we will not tolerate PITA clients nor allow them to influence others. If that means that we recognize them for what they really are and then can make them realize how their conduct results in being held accountable, then whatever it takes is what we need to do. I don't tolerate any client or even a potential client who presents themselves the way the customer associated with this thread did; I post my policies for all to see and if they don't like them they can move on. If they make a purchase and then immediately try to create an issue I just refer them to the agreement that they acknowledged and then will contact them and ask them what part they didn't understand. Not to be rude or offensive to them but if a person indicates that they have read and understand the contents of an agreement they are legally bound by that agreement whether they read it or not. That is pretty much the law around the world when it comes to business operations but the policies that protect us are the most forgotten area of setting up any business outlet, Etsy, Ebay, or even our own websites. If you don't let the people know UP FRONT how you conduct your business and what they should expect, you don't have a leg to stand on when an issue such as this arises. On the other hand, if you have it all laid out for the world to see then when you get the "problem child" customer you just remind them of what they agreed to and move on. If you get a threat of legal action all you do is tell them that you will see them in court along with the documentation related to the sell and they all of the sudden shut up because they realize that you are serious about your business. You can't say that for those "market flooders" though, they are just out to get that quick buck and move to the next "bargain basement sucker".