Buying Keestar Sewing Machine 441 Directly From China..

[kwalk20]

This is an interesting thread. I learned a lot. I had no clue of all the complexities that are involved. I'm so glad I went with reputable dealers for my industrials. My Seiko compound flatbed from Campbell-Randall, and awaiting my Cowboy 3200 from Bob @ Toledo. 

[Darren Brosowski]

Just to clarify....

My earlier post was not to have a go at Keestar as I have done plenty of business with them and they have proved to be very reliable. The machines are generally well set up from the factory and they are very professional. My issue is that importing your own machine is fraught with pitfalls and is not overall cheaper than buying a machine from a local dealer. 

By Chinese standards the 441 is a very low volume machine and there are not multiple factories making the parts and assembling the machines. The difference is the expertise and support of your local dealer.

 

 

[brmax]

Well said Darren, I find in these past years since 90 the information we have on pc in front of us if wanted can be a great boost with projects. Myself an old professional in the mechanic repair field needs to use the auxiliary gears many times, meaning the option of another professionals training and advantages. Again I kindly say to the young ones ( experience matters ) 

Good day

Floyd

[RusticLeatherShop]

Hi,

Yeah I just ran over an Webpage which offered copies of the Juki 441 as well. See here: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/441-single-lockstitch-cylinder-bed-extremely_60479210003.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.14.200e9bd9EtEXwW

This is the JL-441 model from Juki (copy) while the Cowboy 4500 are a copy of the Juki TSC 441. I have seen on alibaba.de (german. I seems not to appear in their english webpage for some reason) as well and Toledo branded Cowboy (eighter 3500 or 4500) for a Little over 1500 US$.

The JL 441 copy above is around 1200 US$. It doesnt specify if it's only the machine or if it Comes with Motor, tables and what not else. It's most likely the machine )head) ONLY and other mentions of Motor voltage is probably the Setup the machine is INTENDED FOR. Very tricky.

Shipping from China may surpass the final US pricing as some members very correctly have mentioned here.

Well I got my CB4500 with Speed reducer and Motor + accesoires for 1970 US$ + the obicuous shipping.

Most likely there are 100's of sewing machine factories in Shenzhen China alone and all are willing to fabricate you same Quality an CB 4500. Put your Name on the machine, and "off ya go with your own brand of TSC 441 machine" very same Quality as Toledos or other US representatives machines.

But like Smartphones ordered directly from alibaba, you are screwed if it doesnt work. No warranty from China, and they expect you to send the machine in to China for repairs. Shipping costs which can be as high as often the machines Price alone (700 US$ maybe, + 700 $ shipping back for a whooping 1400$ shipping). You must be on the factories gates personally to receive and inspect the machine - otherwise that could be a very sorrow buy.

Warranty is mandatory for These things which you will NOT get by buying directly from China.

[RusticLeatherShop]

On ‎07‎.‎07‎.‎2014 at 5:02 AM, korokan said:

Thanks guys for all your valuable and honest opinions. I did not even think that a 441 has to be adjusted to sew leather or other materials. I always thought that since it is a 441 , it will automatically sew harness since I presumed they are built to do so. It never occur to my mind that you will have to adjust the timing of this machine to sew your harness leather. I will have to be a mechanical engineer to understand those technicalities which I am not.

Yes, if you have to time the machine yourself, then that can become problematic. I would not trust myself to do that from scratch. Since you can not open the machines Body to look at the innards to learn by seeing how it works and has to be adjusted. If it is not pre threaded some people are lost eve with that.

You could as well play russian roulette with an alibaba.com China ordered Revolver which may or may not turn even the cylinder lest to speak about being timed correctly!

[BDAZ]

Years ago you could fly to Germany and pick up a Mercedes, drive it around Europe on a vacation and ship it home. The car would arrive as a used vehicle and not subject to the duties that have recently been reimposed by our fearless leader. My dad did this every few years and used the car for business in Europe, brought it back and then sold it at a profit a couple of years later, and then bought another. Many of the European luxury car manufacturers offered a complete package.

I started doing business  in Shenzhen in the 80s. Senzhen is a pretty interesting place to visit. If you had the inclination to visit China, you could probably purchase your machine at the factory and make sure it was set up and working properly and you would probably get  a tour of the factory and be treated to a nice meal. In addition you could write off the trip as a business expense.There is a cultural theme park there, definitely worth a visit and you would offset your expenses a bit by saving a few bucks on your machine.

I would NOT purchase it sight unseen unless you are looking for a huge paperweight.

Bob

Edited September 30, 2018 by BDAZ

[RusticLeatherShop]

BDAZ,

Thats about a as a realistic answer as it can get. Nothing beats first Hand info and real life info.

I get my Infos mostly from serpentZA Youtube Videos who is residing for 10 years in Shenzhen or Ghuangdhon China and learned a lot. Similar to Latinamerica in many ways. The mentality to rip off the foreigner seems to be the same in Latinamerica as in China (you better receive and inspect personally the item since it can be DOA when they suspect nobody is checking it).

There are many Smartphone companies who importet smrtphones directly from China to Europe. Looks like a good percentage of those electronics are faulty and lots of the remaining are starting to fail with components a few months after purchase. Dead On Arrival is common.

For sewing machines, it's maybe harder to screw up the manufacturing since it's steel and cast iron, but still common faults can be

stripped threads,

screws who shear off their heads on Arrival (I have had this with my brandnew CB4500 and Hightex USA took care of me but they had the tendency to suggest as well to look for them on local hardstores which was a Little strange to me),

missaligned optical eye on the Motor (which I have had as well and Hightex took care of me with instructions so I myself adjusted the optical eye as such as the machine does now stop precisely "when taking the foot off the gas pedal"),

there can be cracked or split cast iron parts (which will be affecting the machines Operation),

badly made threads on the cast iron (Which afterwards is allmost not to fix by the endconsumer himself),

low Quality bearings,

bearings who fail after some use due to Shoddy Quality workmanship (this is a Mayor part which can fail which renders the machine useless). I would not dare to hammer out an faulty bearing from an cast iron machine (hits will most likely split the cast iron) so the bearing better never fail. Thats why the CB4500 IMHO does only use 1 or 2 needle bearings and the rest is an steel ring where a steel rod Comes through which turns inside the ring which has to be oiled allways to reduce friction thus wear and tear.

[BDAZ]

What you have to remember is that you are dealing with a communist country where state controlled production was all about quantity, not quality. It has always been a sellers market, never enough consumer goods to meet demand and no profit motive. Generally they took their costs and added a small fixed percentage for "profit" and that was it.

Things are changing but some of the more industrial products are a victim of their history. If you manage the Chinese , especially QC by having a US or other foreign representative in the factory, thing go quite well. Also they will always sell the best production domestically as there is less blow back from faulty products.

It is changing and the better they get the more business they will attract.

Bob

[RusticLeatherShop]

3 minutes ago, BDAZ said:

and no profit motive. Generally they took their costs and added a small fixed percentage for "profit" and that was it.

Well I guess those small profits translate to luckily for the american consumer, but bad for the american industry as "our great leader" already has realised. I guess it's a good move Trump makes to stop production in China and produce those items in the USA, but he should not Forget to bring down the margins as well. If the Profit margins in the USA fall lets say from 12$ labour costs per hour to 1.8$ labour costs /h like in Latinamerica, then very well These clones can be made in the USA for about 1500$ as well. People really dont Need to earn that much since they "throw the Money out of the window for luxury goods anyways". Like if the iPhone costs Apple 385$ to produce the US governement should apply a haircut to pricing for an end consumer Price of no more that 550 US$. Locally (Southamerica) the governement has applyed a haircut to the Banks for top interest rates charges for credit Cards. The cry of the banksters was great but now things have improved showing up more an more prepaid credit Cards and debt Levels of people has fallen drastically. Banks said they will not "be able" to offer more credit Cards, but lo and behold the prepaid credit Card showed up allowing for me as well to have one. So not all socialist regulatory measures are bad. Somehow the greedyness has to be limited.

Lover the labour costs as well living costs within the USA, and then bring back all industries from China by taxing heavily all imports. Then things got straighten out again. That means an Juki TSC 441 clone has to be offered for about 1500 US$ (head + all accesoires) + Motor + reducer and table and very well the whole set will be availlable for below 2000 US$ but made in an Quality way from american workers.

[RusticLeatherShop]

20 minutes ago, BDAZ said:

It is changing and the better they get the more business they will attract.

IMHO not really. If they go past a Limit (they are on right now), the labour costs are just to expensive and business will leave.

If labour costs would rise in China costing now the CB4500 near 3000 US$, I would have not bought one. Simple as that. One can make a great Quality product but if the Price is skyhigh, no customers will buy it. Look at Sony Laptops made in Japan. What today is made in Germany or Japan? Nothing really, because of high pricing despite the high Quality.