What Machine Is This?

[Constabulary]

You can hand crank or treadle almost every machine, even the modern ones it just depends on how you set it up.

Is it important for you to have a post bed machine? Or does a flat bed or cylinder bed machine work too?

Check Craigslist if you can find something local or check Ebay or some dealers in your era as most of them have used machines in good working condition. A member just shot a Singer 111G156 for just 50$ on Ebay and another member shot an Adler 167 for just $100 from Craigslist. I´m sure you can find some vintage Singer 111 series (flat bed) or 153 series (cylinder bed) machines or something similar for a good price. They are durable and long living but they may need some overhauling due to their age. And parts are still available and not very expensive. These machines and their clones from Consew, Juki, Brother and so on are wide spread.

Check out the the thread of the member Hi Im Joe - He started with the idea of a small domestic machine and finally has found a nice Adler 167 for just $100.

So good / cheap / vintage machines are out there you just have to look around and you probably have to take the "pain" to restore them a little bit.

If you don´t have the time you have to buy something new that works out of the box.

I have restored all my machines and never bought a new one as sewing is just a (nice) hobby and I cannot spend a couple of $ grands for it. But all machines work fine and all are vintage and 40 - 50 years old and all turned out quite nice and are well working now! BUT I had to learn a lot. I bought some machines that where not suitable for me but it does not matter as I went through a learning process and I´m still learning new things every day.

What are you planing to do / produce with your machine? I think it is easier to find a machine this way than checking every detail of single machines you come across randomly. Members here are very helpful but they just can give you a helping hand at the end YOU have to make the decisions.

[Hi Im Joe]

Many thanks again to Constabulary for the information and help with identifying good leather sewing machines.

[Wizcrafts]

Would the singer leather patcher 29k work well for simple use sewing with .58mm thread (tex270 I think). 7 SPI.

Not in this timeline. Maybe in an alternate future universe. A Singer 29k71 or 29k172 - both of which are in my shop - cannot sew thicker than 1/4 inch (6mm), nor with any thread larger than #92 (T90). Th k71 has a bobbin the size of three US nickes stacked together. The k172 has a bobbin the size of a quarter, stacked thrice. They hold enough #69 thread to sew several zippers onto jackets. Even if they could sew with thicker thread, the bobbins would run out after two or three feet (1 Canadian yardstick).

We have machines for sale that can sew with .58mm thread. They are built by Campbell-Randall. Known as needle and awl machines, they sell for upwards of $6,000.

[Fat Dog Leather]

DavidL,

The very old and vintage machines are fun and what I too wanted....purest to sew with a crank or treadle. The old Singer 29-4 I have is in great shape (c.1909) but has many draw backs as mentioned above, the biggest is its diffulculties to sew long consistent runs.... Therefore called patch machine for a reason. I also have a vintage Singer post bed as in the video...(it also has limitations as mentioned although less), but can sew right to the edge of very soft material -mine came from a glove factory. As I ventured along I have settled on a flat bed Pfaff (1960) walking foot and a Cobra 4. Both of which allow me to hit the ends of the material spectrum along with the post machine.....But it has been a learning experience which I hopefully will continue to progress in.

This site has been a great reference for me and I thank all the machine experts for your kind words of wisdom!

Best of luck to you!

[Constabulary]

Maybe a Singer 45K is something for you. It is vintage, not very expensive (most of the times - but there are some who wants an arm and a leg for them), it has a large heavy hand wheel, it easily takes the heavy thread and has a quite large bobbing, they are built like tanks and standard parts are still available. You can find them as cylinder bed and flat bed. Cylinder beds are a more expensive than flat beds.

The lady in the video has one too as it seems.

Just an idea...

[DavidL]

Maybe a Singer 45K is something for you. It is vintage, not very expensive (most of the times - but there are some who wants an arm and a leg for them), it has a large heavy hand wheel, it easily takes the heavy thread and has a quite large bobbing, they are built like tanks and standard parts are still available. You can find them as cylinder bed and flat bed. Cylinder beds are a more expensive than flat beds.

The lady in the video has one too as it seems.

Just an idea...

Thanks for the response.

Singer 45k and singer 201 -4(hand crank) are my two top options.

Does anyone have the average price of 45k or singer 201, they go on sale on ebay for bidding and I don't want to overpay.

I read singer 201 has the best stitch and by many known as the best looking stitch even by todays standard, rolls royce used the machine for production of their interiors, will singer 45k create just a good of a stitch?

With hand cranking does the model/ weight of the machine make a difference in sewing thicker leather? Shouldn't the needle do all the work?

Using a hand cranked machine like the 201 or 45k can a treadle or larger wheel be added afterwards to the hand crank models.

Any other machines that are competitors please do recommend so I can look into them.

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks for the response.

Singer 45k and singer 201 -4(hand crank) are my two top options.

Does anyone have the average price of 45k or singer 201, they go on sale on ebay for bidding and I don't want to overpay.

I read singer 201 has the best stitch and by many known as the best looking stitch even by todays standard, rolls royce used the machine for production of their interiors, will singer 45k create just a good of a stitch?

With hand cranking does the model/ weight of the machine make a difference in sewing thicker leather? Shouldn't the needle do all the work?

Using a hand cranked machine like the 201 or 45k can a treadle or larger wheel be added afterwards to the hand crank models.

Any other machines that are competitors please do recommend so I can look into them.

David;

There is no comparison between an industrial sewing machine (like the 45k series) and a domestic Singer 201. Domestic machines are extremely limited in the thickness and toughness that can be sewn, as well as the allowable sizes of thread they can tension. A 201, which you are looking at on FleaBay, is only good for sewing soft leather, and is limited to using #69 bonded thread. It is built like a tank, but not with sewing leather belts in mind. The tensioning components and hook are too small and thin to use thread heavier than T70 (#69) bonded nylon thread.

You will be very lucky if that machine will penetrate more than 12 ounces of soft leather. Then, you may find that the presser foot can't hold down the leather between stitches, so you'll need to crank down the spring over the foot. This will increase the drag on the leather, resulting in shorter stitches, possibly of varying lengths. Since belt leather is typically rather dense - especially after tooling it - the #110/18 needle will probably get deflected and break.

Have you even taken the time to read the sticky article on the top of this forum, about the type of sewing machine you need to sew leather? If you had, you would not be looking at domestic sewing machines for making leather belts.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Wizcrafts

[Wizcrafts]

My last recommendation, before I permanently exit this topic, is that you take some of your leather samples, finished and ready to be sewn, to an industrial sewing machine dealer. If you cannot find one close to you, since you are in Canada, mail them to Raphael Sewing in Montreal, P.Q. They are the distributors of the Techsew brand of sewing equipment and are permanent advertisers and contributors to this forum. I have no doubt that Ronnie at Techsew (Raphael) will take one look at your work and get back to you with the best, least expensive machine they have that can handle your work, with the stitch lengths and thread sizes you prefer.

Exit, stage left...

[Constabulary]

Thats true - no comparison!

Just to give you and idea of the needles, bobbins and hooks / bobbin cases for the 45K and a domestic machine.

Tape show centimeters - not inches.

The "large stuff" is for a 45K and the "tiny stuff" is what works in a domestic.

As Wiz said - read the pinned post and maybe watch this Video it is helpful. Arthur Porter is also a member here.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Constabulary

[DavidL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLipfdjWTbg this is the video that I saw that made me consider the 201 - 2. It's sewing what looks like 12 plus ounces of vegtan and can handle more.

On ebay the 45k is listed at 2500 and another at 900, whats the normal price of this machine.

Can you buy a slightly larger needle for the 201 from modern needles to fit tex 270 (.58mm).

[Constabulary]

Honestly - read the pinned thread and watch Arthur Porters video. This is all you need to find a suitable machine.

Both come from experienced leather workers and not from a "fart burner next door" - don´t buy everything you see on youtube or read in ebay auctions. HERE it the place where you get 1st hand information from people who really work with their machines and not only sew a few inches for a youtube video. This probably not what you want to hear but thats how it is!

If you don't trust the people here, buy a 201 and try it - it may work for a while with thin needles and thin thread but I´m sure you will have problems with a 22 size or larger needle. A 201 is something Mummy repairs her skirt with but when Daddy needs a new tool belt or rifle sling I´m sure Daddy will be quite disappointed with the result. Or what do you think why there are these heavy industrial sewing machines out there? They were build for a reason and not to fool people.

BTW - have you noticed how the machine struggles at the beginning and how it pulls up the entire belt? That guy probably restores machines but is not working with them all day or even for a living. It is one thing just to own an "instrument" but playing the instrument it whole different story!

I only can speak for Germany and the 45K can be found for 200€ up to 400€ (not $) when it is a flat bed - cylinder bed may cots 200€ on top. But you´d rather find an Adler 4 or 5 than a Singer 45K over here. Price depends on the condition and what accessories comes with the machine. There is not the one and only price for something.

At the end you have to find the machine and decide if you are willing to pay the price or not. It may be a long journey or just a short trip as the member "Hi Im Joe" had one!

You now have got a lot of good hints & suggestions now go ahead and try something!

And forget this 201 thing - Again - read the thread - watch the video!

[Wizcrafts]

Can you buy a slightly larger needle for the 201 from modern needles to fit tex 270 (.58mm).

You will have to search far and wide to get #20 leather point needles that fit the Singer model 201. Most sewing dealers only stock up to #18 needles for home machines. The thickest thread you can run through a #20 needle, if you can even find one, is T90, or #92 as we call it here.

There ain't no way to run #277 thread through that little old Singer home sewing machine.

This forum is about leather sewing machines. The Singer 201 is NOT what we consider a "leather" sewing machine. It is a home sewing machine that is able to sew some types and "thinnesses" of leather, with very thin thread.

Good luck dude.

[DavidL]

singer 201 is a heavy duty machine and can work on vegtan with a bit of effort so its a compromise. If I have 2 grand to spend I would go down to a store and pick up a good machine but thats not the case.

singer 45k is better than the singer 201 and the 45k is at 1300 dollars canadian after duties and shipping at the least so its not feasible. Any other industrial machine will come close to 800 or over for the cheapest.

So far my list from first choice to last is:

Singer 45k since it can work on thicker leather with ease - 1300 - over my budget

Singer 29k - using a creaser or groover so it can stitch for long lines without straying - 250-400

Singer 201 (gear driven) or 15- 91 with 18 needle - 200-400

[Hi Im Joe]

singer 201 is a heavy duty machine and can work on vegtan with a bit of effort so its a compromise. If I have 2 grand to spend I would go down to a store and pick up a good machine but thats not the case.

singer 45k is better than the singer 201 and the 45k is at 1300 dollars canadian after duties and shipping at the least so its not feasible. Any other industrial machine will come close to 800 or over for the cheapest.

So far my list from first choice to last is:

Singer 45k since it can work on thicker leather with ease - 1300 - over my budget

Singer 29k - using a creaser or groover so it can stitch for long lines without straying - 250-400

Singer 201 (gear driven) or 15- 91 with 18 needle - 200-400

You should listen to Wiz and Constabulary. They know what they are talking about. When researching for my machine I read a ton of threads in this section of the forum. Time and again I found the same three or four people giving awesome and very accurate advice. Wiz, Constabulary, Trox, and Cowboy Bob.

[machinehead]

Joe, you are a quick study. Well done Grasshopper.

[Hi Im Joe]

It's not hard when there are a litany of posts with people asking questions about sewing machines and one of those four dudes makes a suggestion and the person comes back with "OMG you were so right...thank you so much." It's in almost every thread started by a newbie those guys comment in.

[DavidL]

I 100 percent agree. Everytime I look at a sewing machine post I see wiz's name and he gives good information. I was hoping he would respond to my post when I started it.

However for some odd reason I am only looking at vintage machines and for a cheap price below 400 so the criteria is different and my options are very slim for the few singers that are in my price bracket.

[machinehead]

David I once saw a Singer 153 K 103 listed on the bay with a pick up only no shipping deal. Well now it was only 12 miles away so I bid and won it for $250.00. It had a huge three phase motor hanging under the table but it also included a brand new 110/220 clutch motor. I think the only thing that I have done to it is replace the feed dog. It uses common feet which I already had. I have had a couple 201 machines around but never did and never will pay 200 let alone 400 for one. The last one I got for $40 and it had new power and pedal cords as well as new internal wiring and was sitting in a cabinet.

It certainly helps to have experience with industrial machines before purchasing one just here there or anywhere. An alternative is to find a reputable dealer as has been suggested and let them do their magic. Their knowledge is invaluable and who knows they may be able to help you out.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I don't know how many more times it's going to take someone to tell you, but dude, listen to what these guys are saying. I took the same journey Wiz did when first looking for a machine. WASTED hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars trying to buy an "affordable" machine to sew things that they weren't designed to sew. In the end, I probably had more money tied up in junk than if I'd just gone out and bought a brand new Adler 205. These videos that make a home sewing machine look like a stitcher are bogus. Of course they say the machine can sew leather; they want to sell you the machine! Save yourself a lot of money and headaches and do like Wiz and Constabulary tell you. You'll be way, way ahead in the long run. If the machine you need isn't in your price bracket, either save longer for it or borrow the damn money. DO NOT compromise and get a machine that isn't made for what you want to do, unless you don't care what your finished products look like.

[Hi Im Joe]

I 100 percent agree. Everytime I look at a sewing machine post I see wiz's name and he gives good information. I was hoping he would respond to my post when I started it.

However for some odd reason I am only looking at vintage machines and for a cheap price below 400 so the criteria is different and my options are very slim for the few singers that are in my price bracket.

I'll say what wiz won't. If you can't buy the right tool....don't buy anything at all. Just wait and save up.

[Wizcrafts]

One item I didn't fully address, which I should have, was when David said he wanted to know if a Singer 29k or 201 could sew with 0.58mm thread. I did a diameter look-up on the thread and needle chart on the Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines website and found that .58mm equates to our commonly used #277 (T270). David had asked if one can simply install a bigger needle to sew with #277 thread on these machines. I failed to answer that the required needle size is: #25 (200). Of all the machines he mentioned, only the Singer 45k can use that size needle, which is about the diameter of a roofing nail. I can't even get my National 300N to sew with a #25 needle, much less a domestic Singer 201. My Singer 29k patchers struggle with a #22 needle and can't even use #138 thread without hiccups.

Simply put, there are no #25 needles in system Hax1 (the system used by the Singer 201). Furthermore, there are no #21, 22, 23, or 24 needles in that system. It is difficult to find #19 or 20, if you can at all. The friggin machines weren't meant to use anything larger than a #18 (110 metric) needle, with thin, #69 (T70) bonded nylon thread. At best, this thread will hold a low-stress seat cover on a kitchen chair. It is the smallest size used by upholstery shops, for thin Naugahyde and cloth. It may hold a zipper in place on a Chinese leather jacket.

I apologize for this oversight. It must have been caused by my fond, yet foggy memories of too much Canadian beer.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Wizcrafts

[DavidL]

I reread the post and did more research yesterday and the same themes kept coming up that even though the 201 may work for thin leathers its motor will struggle to do thicker leathers for long. I was under the impression that it could do veg tan but clearly domestics can't do leather. Il have to get the 45k when one pops up on craigslist.

Thanks for the responses and I'm glad I didnt pick up a domestic.

[Constabulary]

was not easy to convince you

The 45K is a quite mighty machine but for sure of of the best vintage machines you can hand crank due to their large heavy hand wheel.

As I said before - maybe a Singer class 111w (flat bed) with walking foot or a Singer class 153w (cylinder bed) with walking foot (walking foot means compound feed / triple feed / unison feed - all the same but different nomenclatures) is an option for you. They can handle about 3/8 thick material w/o problem, most have 5-6 stitches per Inch and can take up to a size 26 needle. They all have subclasses (like 111W155 or 111w156) . A sub class marks technical differences. Considering the 111w155 and 111w156 - they are the same but the 156 subclass has a reverse lever the 155 has non. Please don´t ask for a list of subclasses - I don´t think there is one (or is there one?). But when you google the machines you will find manuals or information from other sources like leatherworker.net or so.

There are of course many clones of the mentioned Singers from brands like Juki, Brother, Seiko, Consew just to name some of the most common you can find used for a reasonable price. But don´t ask for all the models or brands - there are just too many. You may also look for Pfaff 145 or 545 or Adler 67 or 167 with walking foot (all flat bed). They are all the same class as the Singer 111w but made in Germany. But there are also subclasses with technical differences.

You see - you have to learn a lot and as you probably have noticed most people have owned more than one machine before they have found the one that suits for their purposes. I´d say I had about 6 or so until I figured what I really need / want.

I started with a Singer domestic machine made of plastic (1980´s made or so) and I ruined the gears it within a few weeks (it cost just 15€), then I had a singer 316 (treadle powered and a bit like the 201 but with zig zag, different hook and so on) - not strong enough and struggled with thick thread and needles. Then I found a Pfaff 138 - great machine but struggled with 3/8 webbing material and thick threads though it was s a sturdy industrial machine (due to its simple drop feed I think). Then I found a nice Pfaff 28 cylinder machine with roller foot but it had tiny bobbin + feed dog - so pretty useless for me. Next was a Adler 4-23 - a HELL of a machine with 2800 rpm clutch motor but back then I had no clue that I can change pulley or even the whole motor so I sold it (today I wish I still had it), next was a Adler 104-2 with a 1400 rpm motor - a great machine, nice large bobbin (same as the 4-23) but I was not able to find additional presser foot for my purposes so I installed a not very well fitting roller foot - that was better but still not perfect. All mentioned machines are sold again. I had one or two more but problems where very similar - I always found them not suitable for my purposes.

Then I found my current machine - a Singer 111G156 from the 1950´s - the 1st with a walking foot - I have restored it and since then it runs like a dream. I recently have added a servo motor and speed reducer now it is absolutely perfect for me. I will keep it a s long s it lasts - I really love it but a larger bobbing would be nice. Other that that - a really great machine!!! Big advance is that almost all spare parts are quite cheap and very easy to find. And you can get a wide range of accessories for it. Then I bought a Singer 307G2 (late 1950´s - 1960s made I think) for zig zag tacks and sewing lighter materials - this is also a great machine and even has a large M style bobbin but it cannot sew what the 111G156 can sew thought it uses the same needles but it has just drop feed and a quite wide feed dog - hard to explain but I just can use it for zig zag and some lighter flat materials but I also love this machine!!! And it even fits in the cut out of the table of my 111G156 so I can use 2 machine on one table and with 1 motor (just have to change the V-belt) My latest machine is a Singer 29K71 patcher / cobbler machine from the 1960´s (also a restoration project). I always wanted one with a short arm as the long arm patcher just take too much space. I just use it for repairs in spots I cannot reach with my flat bed machines. It works great but this machine is not very precise in sewing long straight seams. So this is not a machine for producing something it is more or less a repair machine for short seams of maybe 2 inches or so (this so far is my experience with it)

And I still have some machines on mind of which I think they could be useful for me but I have to try them before I can make a final decision. Any maybe I´ll figure they are not useful - so you see - a lot of trial and error on my end but I have learned a lot and would not miss it.

[kapaa1970]

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Constabulary said:

You can hand crank or treadle almost every machine, even the modern ones it just depends on how you set it up.

Is it important for you to have a post bed machine? Or does a flat bed or cylinder bed machine work too?

Check Craigslist if you can find something local or check Ebay or some dealers in your era as most of them have used machines in good working condition. A member just shot a Singer 111G156 for just 50$ on Ebay and another member shot an Adler 167 for just $100 from Craigslist. I´m sure you can find some vintage Singer 111 series (flat bed) or 153 series (cylinder bed) machines or something similar for a good price. They are durable and long living but they may need some overhauling due to their age. And parts are still available and not very expensive. These machines and their clones from Consew, Juki, Brother and so on are wide spread.

Check out the the thread of the member Hi Im Joe - He started with the idea of a small domestic machine and finally has found a nice Adler 167 for just $100.

So good / cheap / vintage machines are out there you just have to look around and you probably have to take the "pain" to restore them a little bit.

If you don´t have the time you have to buy something new that works out of the box.

I have restored all my machines and never bought a new one as sewing is just a (nice) hobby and I cannot spend a couple of $ grands for it. But all machines work fine and all are vintage and 40 - 50 years old and all turned out quite nice and are well working now! BUT I had to learn a lot. I bought some machines that where not suitable for me but it does not matter as I went through a learning process and I´m still learning new things every day.

What are you planing to do / produce with your machine? I think it is easier to find a machine this way than checking every detail of single machines you come across randomly. Members here are very helpful but they just can give you a helping hand at the end YOU have to make the decisions.

I just bought a 111g156 & 281-1. Both for $100. The 281 is in excellent condition & the 111 had to change the timing belt which he already had bought. However, upon changing the belt I broke the take-up lever, lol. (Stupid error on my part.) But I think I scored a great deal. I just kept checking Craigslist, ebay and everywhere online till BOOM!!! there it was. Happy hunting.

Edited July 8, 2016 by kapaa1970