are rear cinches important?

[Traveller]

The saddle I ride in now (a Billy Cook ranch saddle) has a rear cinch on it, but last night when I was ranch sorting, I knocked my ankle against the rear cinch buckle and, well, it hurt!

So I got thinking... when I finally order my custom saddle (right after I order a better economic outlook and Canadian dollar!), do I really need one?

I won't ever rope a cow, though I do expect to do some fairly serious back country riding, and I've just started ranch sorting. Eventually I'll do some penning, too.

I like the vaquero-style saddles, as opposed to the pleasure types, which could mean that even if I don't actually need a back cinch, it might look strange without one. And though I hope to be buried with my custom saddle, the truth is that I might want to sell it at some point, so it should have the things on it that most people want or expect, at least within reason.

Whaddaya'll think?

Thanks!

Joanne

Edited October 29, 2008 by Traveller

[Timbo]

My vote is no on back cinches, or belly bands. My opinion is only if you rope do you need one. I ride in the mountains and do not use one.

Tim

[kseidel]

Rear cinchas are certainly not required, even for most roping. The stability of the saddle is more dependant on how the front rigging is hung, and not having a tight rear cinch. If the saddle does not fit the horse well, the rear cinch won't help.

As for resale... having a rear rigging is certainly more popular and may make the difference to a prospective buyer. You can have the saddle made with a rear rigging and either not make the rear cinch and billets, or remove them. I make a lot of saddles with reverse loops on the billets as opposed to lace for easy removal.

Keith

[Steve Brewer]

Traveler,I personally don't ride a back cinch.If your rigging is put in right and the tree fits your horse it will be fine.We build 4 or 5 single rigged saddles a year.Most go to ranches were they roped off of a lot.

Steve

[Traveller]

Traveler,I personally don't ride a back cinch.If your rigging is put in right and the tree fits your horse it will be fine.We build 4 or 5 single rigged saddles a year.Most go to ranches were they roped off of a lot.

Steve

So does that mean back cinches are something people think they need if they're roping, much in the way they think they can't have in-skirt rigging if they're going to rope? Troy has that beautiful new in-skirt rigged saddle of his posted in the Gallery right now that's going to a serious roper, and I'm thinking both Troy and his customer know what they're doing!

And if you're not roping (and, as some have said, even if you are), it's just an extra piece of saddle that you don't need and which could get in the way, either when you bang your ankle against it or a branch on the trail or your horse's hind hoof gets caught in it. Am I right there?

Thanks, everybody! That custom saddle of mine is taking shape in my mind at least... now if someone would please prop up the economy for me, I could get the darned thing out of my head and into the shop!

[Traveller]

PS... that back cinch of mine is coming off today! The billets will still be there so the saddle's next owner can hook it back up, but you all have convinced me I don't really need it.

Thanks!

[Echo4V]

The only reason I have used a back cinch is because it's one more thing I can get a horse used to for the owner. As I've said I'm not a roper but I do train a few horses and when I do I try to get them used to anything I can think of so I ride a back cinch most of the time but as for an actual use for it I haven't really had one.

[Denise]

The stability of the saddle is more dependant on how the front rigging is hung

If your rigging is put in right

I am no authority on riggings, but I think the answer to your question is not a definite yes or no, but more of an "it depends". There are many types of riggings and different ways they can be put in that affect how they pull on the saddle, and that would determine how important a back cinch might be. Here are some threads (and there are more) where the saddle makers are discussing the hows and whys of different types of riggings. Maybe after reading these you will have a better idea how important your back cinch may or may not be depending on how your saddle is rigged.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...&hl=rigging

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...&hl=rigging

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...&hl=rigging Post #14

My own comment about back cinches is that if you are going to have one on your saddle - use it! i.e. snug it up. A back cinch hanging 3" below the horse's belly is doing absolutely no good and is a wreck waiting to happen.

[okiwen]

My mentor says that for the most part "No". He feels that his customer would feel 'ripped off' if he didn't include it but they have no need for it. It is his experience that ropers might find the use in that a hard hit on the rope puts stress on the horn and causes lift on the back. But...not many rope this hard or this long to require the rear cinch. Still, he includes one with every saddle.

Edited October 31, 2008 by okiwen

[TrooperChuck]

Joanne:

I've already given my ideas about rear cinches in a different posting, but here's a few more thoughts that come to mind. For back-county riding, there are two schools of thought with rear cinches...

Some feel that rear cinches are not needed, and are merely a "branch trap" waiting to be snagged by low bushes and trees.

Others feel that, when used properly, a rear cinch helps secure a saddle, thereby allowing you to use a slightly looser front cinch.

After lots of experimenting on back-country rides and packing trips, I've come to be a believer in the second theory. With my rear cinch snug, but not tight, against my horse I don't have to tighten the front cinch as much as I used to. That makes my horse very happy. By keeping the rear cinch snug, it also reduces the odds of something getting tangled in it.

If you've read my posting in regards to your question about breast collars, you've seen my other thoughts on those, and rear cinches. (Unfortunately, I saw that posting first, answered it, and then saw this one.)

happy trails!

[grumpyguy]

I have to agree with Trooper Chuck, It is important in rough country and helps the saddle from sliding/tipping forward too much when riding down extreamly steep slopes, when properly adjusted. (That will cause you to be bucked off on alot of "bomb proof" horses when they get a shoulder blade pinched under the saddle because it tipped too far forward.) It is added to make riding, safer, more comfortable for rider and horse. On most trails you would never miss it, but venture off into the rough country side and you'll soon see the advanages.

[ArtS]

The biggest problem I see with rear cinches are that people don't know how to tighten them. They leave them loose even before they mount and then after they mount it's hanging down about 6 inches or more. I try to tell these folks that that is extremely dangerous but they rarely listen. There they hang just waiting for a limb or a foot to get caught up in it.

Art

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Grumpyguy and TrooperChuck,

I certainly don't mean this in a disrespectful way and I realize we all have our own experiences to draw on, but I often wonder when I hear comments like yours regarding rear cinches, about the type of trees you are using and the types of backs on the horses being ridden.

In my own experiences with factory made trees from Ritter, Hercules, Superior, etc... I always found the front gullet much too wide leaving a very sloppy fit upfront. Combined with a horse with a mediocre back and you have a saddle that is simply not capable of staying put as well as can be achieved. Over the last seven years I have been using handmade trees from different makers and even though like Rod and Denise always say "every maker does things differently", one common element among handmade trees is that the front end has a much more precise fit that in my opinion, holds a horse much better than a factory made tree. Combine that with a decent back and you can ride rough terrain such as that found in the mountains of British Columbia and Alberta with no rear cinch. And to be clear, I am talking about steep, gravel slopes that sometimes you slide down with matching trails going up the mountain.

As I mentioned, I don't mean any disrespect from my comments, but it seems there are so many variables besides the type of rigging, that it is difficult to give someone a sweeping answer that covers all scenarios.

Darc

[superchute]

first off your choice in the back chinch but on the other hand was it right size you we do change the size of the front chinch may be your back one was to long

Russ

[Steve Brewer]

The main reason saddles move on horses is the tree.It dosen't have the right bar spread .In the spring I brand calves for a month or more.We rope 400 to 500 lb. calves,most are riding 3/4 rigged saddle.85% have taken the rear cinch off.I don't see many reseting there outfit very offten.

[hidepounder]

Another really interesting topic! I don't think there is a definitive answer here. I can tell you that, as a roper, I personally would never even consider not riding a back cinch in the roping arena! I care too much about my horse to take a chance on hurting him. That pretty in-skirt rigging that Troy built has a back cinch for a reason! I have personally seen horses injured when roping, because the back cinch wasn't used properly!

I can understand, however, that in principle, a saddle, properly fitted and rigged may reduce the need for a back cinch, when roping. I personally have never seen this. I'm not saying it's not done...I just haven't seen it...in forty plus years of roping, inside and outside, here in Arizona!

It is unrealistic for me, to accomplish such a "fit" on each of my rope horses, so I'm using a back cinch and I'm cinching it real tight before every run, for my safety and my horses! I use a back cinch on my working saddle when gathering also...we have some pretty rough country which is not suitable for goats, let alone cattle...so I use it, and a breast collar too. Personally, I don't know any working cowboys in this part of the country who don't use their back cinches.

That being said, I can't say with 100% confidence, that the use of back cinches here by working cowboys, is strictly the result of necessity...I suspect that local custom plays a part also. So much of what we do is dictated by what we are taught, which is lnfluenced by the region we're in. Gathering cattle in wheat pastures probably does not require the same equipment as gathering cattle in mesquite thickets. It seems logical that different parts of the country require the use of different equipment.

If you're just pleasure riding, in mild country, you probably do not need or a back cinch or a breast collar. And a rear cinch is certainly not needed if you are just exercising you horse in the arena! I think the decision one makes about what equipment to use is based on their particular circumstances...how, where and what you are riding, and not a general rule of thumb. I personally agree with TrooperChuck...I think that a rear cinch is valuable equipent. I just would rather ride a back cinch and not need it, than wish I had it.

Bob

[Steve Brewer]

Bob,I rope a lot.Both inside and out.We use slick horns when we doctor outside and let are turns run a little to avoid the jerk.The main use of a rear cinch is getting animals stopped.It serves no help pulling any thing.A 3/4 rig set below your skirt make a great outside set up.I aggree that different region have their own customs.

I don't ride a rear cinch or use a breast collar and will rope anything I have to.Haven't had many wreaks or sored any horses because of it.All that said,Everyone should use what works for them.

Steve

[hidepounder]

Hi Steve,

As a saddlemaker, you have knowledge of fitting a rig that most cowboys don't have, at least not here, anyway. In this part of the country most cowboys ride the horses they're given and they don't have the finances to pay for a really good quality custom saddle. They spend 90% of their time working cattle, alone, in rough country and more often than not, they're handling cattle that require the use of dogs and only see human beings two or three time a year.

I have absolutely no argument with anything you are saying except that, what we are talking about just doesn't apply when competing in the arena. There, you don't ride slick horns, you don't slip rope and you don't avoid the jerk. It's a perfect example of different circumstances requiring different gear. I just don't beleve there is a single rig that meets every demand. I know I sure wouldn't want to have to work outside all day in a roping saddle, I'd be crippled in a hurry!

Anyway, I haven't read a single argument in this thread that convinces me that using a back cinch is a detriment...I still think I need one. Just my humble opinion...sometimes you just can't teach an old dog, new tricks!

Still pulling two up tight!

Long live cowboys!

Bob

[Steve Brewer]

Bob I agree with you about the flank cinch in the arena.Would also use one in the feedlot.

Steve

[grumpyguy]

Hi everyone,

I, like Hidepounder will always use a back cinch on my rigs. I know a flank cinch, breast collar or crupper is not always needed and most people who ride trails, gentle terrain and roadways will never miss them. Those who handle cattle and know what they are doing may get along fine without any of the afore mentioned items.

I must follow that up with, when I've been on week or longer gathers in the mountains and I will ride several different horses. Rides of ten to thirty miles in a day might be needed depending on terrain. When you first arrive at camp the mounts are fat and sassy. The way we all like 'em. Plenty of gas and go to get ahead and catch the cows. As the riding progresses all day long, everyday, the backs of the horses begin to change as they lose weight from the calories required to do so much traveling. The horses smooth backs become more musceled and change shape affecting saddle fit. (We always provide plenty of hay to the point of almost waste and suppliment grain morning and evening, or really before daylight and after dark.) It is impossible to keep the weight on with so much work being required and you only have a few weeks to get the cows out before it snows you out, killing any cows left behind. Some years are worse than others and you never know for sure when the weather will turn. I've seen 60 or 70 in the morning a twenty (or possibly less) by evening with inches of snow starting to pile up.

Consider also horses sweat as they are worked and it is important to allow them to drink as often as possible. Unfortuately the range may have drier areas where water is not always so accessible. As the horse sweats it loses water, sometimes alot of water before you can get them watered again. The fit of the saddle will change and front and rear cinches must be checked and adjusted often. I've seen both custom and mass produced saddles that were not fitting well after a week of gathering. It's just not possible or realistic expect saddles to fit the same under these, maybe extreame conditions.

The dogs will certainly do thier best but let's face it. A cow convinced she won't be caught is not going to stop for a few dogs. So it is needed that someone follow the dogs and stop the cows like this as soon as possible. The guys who I liked to ride for usually tried to keep the cows accustom to being handled and dispose of trouble makers as they were noticed to have developed bad habits. (Letting them get away actually trains the cow to run.) There are always cowmen who can't figure that out and don't have good cows. One in the group will cause all of them to run. I only say this to point out we can not always be in control of the situation all of the time.

Slow is fast when it comes to cow hunts, as long as the cows co-operate, and most of the time it works out great.

I can think of one instance (out of several memorable experiences) where my partner and I were searching for about ten missing cows a week or two after the main gather. A hunter told us he saw ten cows in a remote canyon located in some of the roughest area of the range. We started snaking through some thick second growth timber down a spur ridge to get into the canyon. A little past half way the ridge became very steep. My partners saddle tipped forward, the pad began working it's way out. I did not see it from behind because I was busy dodging the dead branches to keep from losing an eye. Finally the pad fell out and the saddle tipped forward even more. My partners horse began to buck and he bailed when the saddle started to slip sideways. It was anasty place to have a wreck. He had some nasty scrathes from the dead limbs but came out okay in the end and re-saddled. The horse was not injured and we finished a very difficult ride. We should have been using cruppers but weren't.

I have a hard time with people telling others they don't really need the gear designed to keep horse and rider safe. I think it far safer to know what you might need and how to use it properly. In cow camp we often could not depend on the guys with the fanciest saddles and best looking rigs to catch the cows. They usually didn't get up before daylight, had beer for breakfast, several beers in the saddle bags, they stood around wondering what was for dinner and not lift a finger to help fix it. They had opinions on everything and were first to voice them. I am not saying any of you are those type. (I certainly hope not, but if you are I don't know what to tell you.) Just use a little caution. You know the country you ride and the gear you need. Becareful about advising others to take gear off without first knowing where they are riding and what they are doing on a horse before telling them what they do or don't need. (Less experienced riders might listen and endup with tragic results.) I know a flank cinch is not aways needed but in some situations it's alot better to have the right gear aboard than not, particularlly when you start out not knowing for sure what you'll be facing when you leave the truck and trailer.

I'll get off my soap box now, it's not my intent to upset anyone and I am not offended by other views. Just making the point that these items were designed with safety in mind and to advise others they will not need them could possibly be contributing to anothers demise.

Take care, keep it fun and safe. Thanks for the discussion.

Grumpy Guy

Edited December 8, 2008 by grumpyguy

[TrooperChuck]

Wow! I bet when Joanne asked about rear cinches she didn't expect such a response. I guess it just goes to show that sometimes there's no simple answer.

D.A. Kabatoff, thanks for sharing your insights on saddle trees and their relationship to rear cinches. I always appreciate hearing different view points, and I think yours makes sense for lots of horse owners who have the luxury of riding one horse with one saddle for a few hours at a time.

I'm not a cowboy/roper like GrumpyGuy, but like him, I sometimes spend many days in the back country. Grump's comments about a horse's back changing during a week-long ride is right on target. They lose fat, build up muscle, and the saddle doesn't sit on the horse the same at the end of the trip as it did at the beginning.

And then, there's the days when you ride several horses. Even though I can make my own saddles, I don't have the luxury of having a specific saddle for every horse. It would be cost prohibitive.

So, for me, I like using rear cinches. But, every horse owner is different. That's what makes this forum so interesting.