Rigging Plate And Skirts

[rktaylor]

I can't decide if my skirts are 'deep' enough on the sides. I intended for them to be longer, but everything is still a learning process. I was ready to order more leather until I started my rigging plate pattern. Now I am tempted to keep them. But then I start thinking about my rear jockeys and wonder if I am going to spend a lot of time trying to cover up more mistakes.

An experienced saddle maker suggested I hang the rear dees below the skirts so the billet fold is on the pad. I have a lot of respect for his work, but this seems counter to most recommendations. Any thoughts on the placement of the rear dee and potentially moving it lower? It can't go higher or the rivets will be too close to the bars. He also suggested I shorten the skirts in the back, but that is not an option as I have already cut a stitch groove.

Dimensions:

1. The skirts are about 3" from the bar starting just behind the point of the cantle to the back.
2. The base of the rigging in the front is about 6.5" below the bar. The pink line on the pattern is a little under 6" below the bars, but still well below the skirts.
3. Overall skirt length is about 28.5".

Any comments or suggestions regarding anything in the photos are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Randy

[Goldshot Ron]

Randy,

I would raise the front rigging plate up to your line on the pattern, but don't make your latigo cut any higher, or trim just a little. Then I would lower the rear dee so that the turnback of the flank billet will be just below the skirt. The skirts look fine as far as I can see from your photos. Wasn't this saddle for your wife? You might want to reduce your skirt length to 28 inches. If you trim at your stitch line, you will have the original line show, but only just a little. You can divert the eye from seeing this if you make a border line parallel to your stitch line, and no one but you will see it (the old stitch line cut).

Your Cheyenne roll looks good. You could reduce it a little to reduce weight.

Also, check the placement of your flank dee, to make sure it isn't back too far. Just a 1/2 inch does make a visual difference.

Ron

[oltoot]

I agree with Ron except for moving the rear dee forward. In the future, I would drop everything in back a little; maybe about 3/4. And I would go ahead and trim the skirts even a silly milimeter more and eliminate the stitch line altogether. Then in lessons learned write in big letters, slow down, breathe, wait as long as possible before doing things that tend to commit you to something else. And just a general design/use observation on Cheyenne Rolls: less is more. Just enough to hook your fingers under for a straightening up/getting back rescue or security moves I have found to be just right. Remember, they (CR's) first came into being as safety measures when bronc riders still rode with their stirrups hobbled under them. ( I'm old but I wasn'y in Cheyenne when they hit the bronc riding world and I never have hobbled my stirrups. But I did quietly listen to oldtimers when I was just a hairy legged kid)To guard against ropes hanging in undesirable ways, shape them down closer to the lower end so that when all is done, no little gap remains at the corner. I seem to recall that you did that on your first one so stick to it. Keep on. You seem to be catching on fast.

[rktaylor]

Ron and Oltoot,

Thanks for the quick reply. I actually have two saddles under construction at this time. This is a Will James for me. The wife's barrel saddle with the in-skirt rigging is coming along nicely. I may get the fleece sewn on the skirts this week. I am moving slower than I want and rethinking a lot of decisions. However, I have eliminated self imposed deadlines and am relaxing a little more. They will be done when I am finished. Ron, I can see how it took you a year on your new saddle.

I like the suggestions on the rigging plate and will make a new pattern. I can trim the Cheyenne roll. For once, I may have some leather to trim that's not already on the floor. I can trim the skirts starting in front of the rear dee and hide the current stitch line under the seat jockey. I'll use some paper before I start cutting the leather.

Thanks again for the suggestions. I am having a lot of fun.

Randy

[kseidel]

Well, I am going to give you some different information... skirt length and depth are cosmetic, more than functional, so you do not need to get hung up on length being too long or short. Better to get the proportions the way you want to achieve the overall look you want. Rigging depth is relative to function as well as cosmetic. If you want a deep rigging and want to keep a balanced proportion to your saddle skirts, then you must plan the rigging depth in advance and then make your skirts and jockeys to compliment.

In this case, if you make your rigging as deep as you are now, you will have a very prominant rigging and it will over power the skirts, making them look small and out of balance, or making your rigging look oversized. I would advise making the rigging to fit the skirts that you have. Setting the rigging higher may not be your prefference, but it will be a better looking saddle and will function well within the tolerance range. I dont like to see a flat plate hung much more than about an inch below the skirt. That is the leather, hardware will be lower.

The position of your rear dee is also mostly cosmetic. Seldom is the rear cinch tight enough to cause the hardware or the billet fold to press into the horse. The top of the dee should be hidden under the rear jockey. Dropping it down below the skirt is more commonly a function of double dee roping saddles and often have the skirt cut up under the dee to facilitate this. It is not common nor proper for the type of rigging you are making. As far as placing it higher, the rivets can certainly be over the tree. If set properly they will not rup on the tree. However, this type of dee has a very large footprint with the rivet flanges, The higher it is hung, the more it will stick out at the bottom. It cannot bend at the fold like a standard dee would. I would shape a curve into the dee so that it will shape around the horse.

Cheyenne rolls are functional, as Oltoot has stated, but can also serve a cosmetic purpose. There is nothing wrong with making a cheyenne roll wider. Make it how you want it to look with the rest of your saddle. Just remember,the wider you make it the harder it is to keep it stiff. You can also adjust the shape and slope to your desired look.

Respectfully,

Keith Seidel

[rktaylor]

Slowing down, breathing, and not cutting leather.

I spent most of Friday cutting up beer cartons and making patterns. The attached pictures indicate where I stopped. I needed more beer cartons and decided that didn't go with cutting things.

I should note that I am thinking about shortening my skirts about an inch in the back, but I am not cutting them yet. The rear dee is kind of high, but the rivets would not be on the tree. I am also thinking about cutting the skirts along the stitch line where the rear dee is located.

I am not completely satisfied with the front rigging. The bottom of the plate is 5.75 inches from the tree bar and the center of the slot is about 5.25 inches down. Earlier suggestions (not on this thread) were closer to 6.5 inches. This means it should be dropped about an inch.

My next concern is the seat jockey only partially covering the rigging plate at the front of the rear dee. The seat jockey could probably altered some to cover this or I may move the dee forward about a half inch.

It was good experience even though I wanted to cut leather. It will be at least a week before I get back to this, so I have some time to 'stew' on it for a while. Any comments about flow, form, etc. are welcome. I really appreciate all the experience that is freely shared.

Randy

[kseidel]

I am not completely satisfied with the front rigging. The bottom of the plate is 5.75 inches from the tree bar and the center of the slot is about 5.25 inches down. Earlier suggestions (not on this thread) were closer to 6.5 inches. This means it should be dropped about an inch.

Why? With all due respect, what law says that a rigging has to be a certain distance from the tree? IMHO, your rigging is still too low to balance with your skirt.

My next concern is the seat jockey only partially covering the rigging plate at the front of the rear dee. The seat jockey could probably altered some to cover this or I may move the dee forward about a half inch.

Agreed, moving your rear dee forward will hide the transition under the seat.

As long as we are analyzing your design so carefully, let's take a closer look at the side seat jockey. You have it drawn somewhat egg shaped low in front. Since your skirt has a straight bottom line, the seat jockey would look best if it had the same arc as it joins the jockey, both front and back. And the lowest point should be in the center, not forward or back. Use caution to prevent the seat from dropping too low. It should not drop bellow the skirt.

All offered with the utmost respect,

Keith

[rktaylor]

Keith,

Thanks for the comments. I see what you mean about the seat jockey. That's my fourth version and it looks better than the first three. I didn't think it was egg shaped until I put it in place. I was actually trying to focus on how the three pieces go together. Point well taken on the rigging and the depth of the seat jockey. I am going to look at a lot of saddles over the next week and hopefully find the look I want. My fear it's that the saddle will end up looking long and skinny. However, that's the way the skirts are cut.

I really appreciate the time you took to provide feedback.

Randy

[kseidel]

Nothing wrong with long and skinny. Reference older Visalia saddles, and more currently Chuck Stormes saddles. Many people prefer this look.

If you want a deeper rigging, than deeper skirts are needed to achieve a more balanced look.

Edited October 13, 2014 by kseidel