Did The Supplier Ship The Correct Needles?

[Evo160K]

The Organ 140/22 leather point needles we received today are not picking up the bobbin thread. They're a bit shorter than the round point G-B needles we've been using. We're restoring a Claes leather patcher machine and are not too familiar with it.

The arm of the machine is marked "nadle 88". The supplier who provided the needles we just received also sold the machine originally. They told us the machine uses a system 88 88® DUX1 needle. When we placed the order, we asked them to ship a package of smaller leather point needles and a package of larger leather point needles for this machine.

The packing slip shows :

10 each 88LR/140 Needle TW PT 140/22

10 each 88LR/180 Needle TW PT 180/24

We received:

10 each Organ DIX4 332LL 29X4NTW 140/22

10 each Organ DIX4 332LL 29X4NTW 180/24

The G-B round point we've been experimenting with are working well, they're marked:

2091 140/22

175 x 7

175 x 9

29 L

29 LSS

1987

TQ x 9 RG

What do you think?

Thank you.

[Constabulary]

I have no needles to compare but I know that the Claes patchers take either Sys. 81 or Sys 88 needles. The Sys. 88 is the longer needle and was used in patcher with a higher foot lift.

Same with the Adler patchers - the Adler 30-1 takes shorter 332 needles (about 45mm long) and the Adler 30-7 takes the longer 332LL (about 55mm long) needles as it has a higher foot lift.

As far as I know the 88 and 332LL have the same length so they should work if both needles have the same length from top to the needle scarf / needle eye. Just insert one and see if the hook meets the needle within the needle scarf.

BTW - is your machine really taking 180 / 24 needles? I think that is pretty thick for a patcher. But maybe the Claes can...

[Constabulary]

Just figured I have some 88 needles they do not have a scarf but a long and a short grove.

I have added some pictures. Don`t get fooled by the picture - they are 55mm long but the closeup makes them look a bit shorter.

Distance between top of shank and top of needle eye is 48 - 48.5mm.

So you can compare this with the needles for have received.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Constabulary

[shoepatcher]

Evo160K

The system 88 needle is for the 30 class or large bobbin Claes. It is the same length as the 332LL or 332LLLg that goes in the Adler 30-7 and 30-70 machines. However, the shank Dia. on the system 88 is 1.90MM. It is 2.00MM on the 332LL or LLLG needles. I have found that trying to get 332 needles into Claes machines can be hard because the fit can be very tight into the Claes needle bar. Just wanted to make you aware of that.

glenn

[Evo160K]

Constabulary, Shoepatcher,

Thank you, thank you very much for your replies, you guys have been a huge help!

Here's a picture of the Organ 22 and 24 332LL needles we received from the supplier and the G-B 140/22 that came with the machine. You can see the G-B is longer. There were a dozen or so round-point G-B in sizes 140,150, and 160 with the machine when we bought it. The Organ are 200 mm at the shank, like you said shoepatcher, and the G-B are 187 - 198 mm. The machine will take up to 207 mm shank needles. I checked that with a set of measuring bits

After pulling the machine apart for cleaning, upon re-assembly, we carefully aligned the small hole in the pulley end of the rack with the similar small hole in the piece that attaches to and drives the rack, we assumed those holes were hook timing holes (there are no instructions). To our amazement, the hook picked up the needle thread flawlessly.

So I guess my concern is do I get longer needles like the G-B but with leather points, or do I use the shorter Organ 332LL and re-time the needle/bobbin pick-up? Constabulary, you were saying the higher lift machine uses a longer needle. The Claes has a 12-13 mm lift, so shouldn't it use a longer needle than the 332LL?

Do any of the needle manufacturers offer a chart showing the dimensions of their leather needles?

Btw Constabulary, just last Friday I finally made contact with the owner of the Adler and Singer machines, he's asked me to make an offer, I'm contemplating the next move.

Thanks again to both of you for your generous help..

Edited October 29, 2014 by Evo160K

[Constabulary]

I just have checked my records and I have a huuuuuge needle chart that shows the needles that the different manufacturers are using with their machines. Since you have a Claes 8345-30 the chart says it takes 88 needles so you actually need a 55mm long needle.

Here is a screen shot:

But the 332LL needles in your picture look too short. They should measure 55mm (like the 88 needles) but yours look like 332 needles which are 45mm long (the LL makes the difference)

Did you get the needles loose or in an original packaging? If you have the original packaging look whats written on it.

Why do I ask? Because it happened that I once bought needles from "White Egret" in size 160 and so it was written on the package but inside the package I have found 140 size needles and from that day on I never again bought "cheap needles".

So maybe something similar happened to you - wrong needles inside the package.

If you received them loose call your supplier and tell him you received wrong / too short needles.

[Evo160K]

Constabulary,

That's an excellent chart. Thank you. What does the "48:15" mean, is that a size?

The needles came in two packages of 10 each. I wonder if they might be counterfeit? Here's a picture of the packages, front and back.

I'll contact the supplier tomorrow and discuss the size with them.

Thanks again for your help.

[Constabulary]

I don´t think it is a counterfeit product but nowadays you never know!

I don´t know the Asian manufacturers mentality (and I will not prejudge them) but probably they have printed a wrong size on the package just to fulfill an order OR it just is a production error. But that is the 2nd case I know of where the nomenclature on a package does not match the contents! But this still could be a production error.

48:11 is a CANU number that is shown on SCHMETZ needle packages only. I think CANU is a Schmetz internal number for their needles.

I will attach the PDF needle chart. It nice to have it by hand when you get an "unknown" machine and have to figure out what needle it takes.

industrial-needle-chart.pdf

Edited October 29, 2014 by Constabulary

[Evo160K]

Thank you Constabulary, that's an awesome list. Someone went to an incredible effort to put that list together.

Are actual measurements available somewhere for needles?

[Gump]

Evo: The needles you received have 29 x 4 on the package, that's the needles for a Singer 29 k patcher. They will also fit an Adler 30-10, which calls for 135 x 17 needles that are the same length from eye to the top of shank as the 29 x 4 needles. 29 x 4 needles are 45mm total length. Gump ps Constabularys chart shows 332 as the same as 29 x 4. The needles you received are mislabeled as 332 LL and are probably just 332's.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Gump

[Evo160K]

Gump,

Thank you for the explanation. Your post script is how I will start the conversation with the supplier, it will be easy for them to understand. Thanks again.

[Evo160K]

Gump, this came off of the Superior Thread website. I was looking for G-B needles. Does this mean a 29 x 4 takes a 332LL ? I think I'm confused! Thank you.

Needle System Groz-Beckert Needle

29 X 3 332

29 X 3 LG 332 LG

29 X 4 NTW 332 LL

29 X 4 RTW 332 LR

29 X 4 TW 332 LL

88 88

Edited October 29, 2014 by Evo160K

[Gump]

I think the problem lies in the description. A needle can have an LL or LR point, and 332's have LL as part of the system designation. You can have 332LL needles in either LL or LR point. If the 332's are to short, you may need 332LL's. My guess is that you need 332LL needles with an LR or LL point, so 332LL LR would be the designation. Confused yet?, hope this helps explain it. Gump. 332,s are shorter than 332LL,s, they are different systems.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Gump

[Evo160K]

Thanks for that explanation, Gump. I understand it now. Btw, when I told the supplier what was on the needle package, he knew immediately they were wrong. He's shipping the correct ones, told me not to return the others.

[shoepatcher]

Evo160K

Can we see pics of the ongoing restoration on the Claes?

shoepatcher

[Constabulary]

This is really a bit confusing but good that the supplier made it right!

[Evo160K]

Shoepatcher, here are some pics.

Does anyone know what the sliding piece with the wing screw fastener in the attached picture is for and how do you know when to use it?

Constabulary, how's your German? Textima, the maker of the Textima/Claes machines sent me a set of operators instructions written in German for a machine, Model R P X, which they say came just prior to and is very similar to my 8345-30. Most of it I recognize, but there is a page I can't translate well enough with google translate to make sense.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Evo160K

[Wizcrafts]

This is really a bit confusing but good that the supplier made it right!

Here is an enigma for you, Constabulary. Tell me if you know what film this is from: "Hier ist die Nadel." Translate it for our English speaking friends.

[Constabulary]

Here is an enigma for you, Constabulary. Tell me if you know what film this is from: "Hier ist die Nadel." Translate it for our English speaking friends.

Wiz, I´d assume you are referring to the Movie "The Eye Of The Needle" but it is decades old and I haven´t seen it very often but I think I remember Donald Sutherland is "The Needle" as he used to kill his opponents with a needle like stiletto. Right?

Constabulary, how's your German? Textima, the maker of the Textima/Claes machines sent me a set of operators instructions written in German for a machine, Model R P X, which they say came just prior to and is very similar to my 8345-30. Most of it I recognize, but there is a page I can't translate well enough with google translate to make sense.

Ah well, not to bad I think as I`am German

Let me know what you need translated and I´m trying my best. Depending how long the text is it could take a couple of days.

[Wizcrafts]

You are correct! The Eye Of The Needle. I still think about Donald Sutherland's character every time I thread a needle on my sewing machines. Das ist die Nadel.

Faber: [calling on radio to submarine] Singvogel. Hier ist die Nadel. Kommen.

["Songbird. This is the Needle. Come."]

[shoepatcher]

Evo160K,

Very nice job on restoring this machine. Shuttle should be the same as today's big bobbin Claes. This particular Claes was made when Claes looked a lot like the 30 class Adler. They were even painted the green metallic hammer tone green like Adler's. I have a friend who purchase one ( and it was green colored) and I picked it up for him in eastern Ohio a few years back. Big bobbin like this one. Not sure what the sliding block does in the back. That is a new one on me.

glenn

[Evo160K]

Constabulary,

Here are two web sites you may want to check out, iirc you were looking for a source for Mil spec, cotton webbing:

http://www.theecwcorp.com/search.php?cmd=search&words=mil+spec+cotton+webbing&target=website

http://www.lowyusa.com/webbing/cotton-webbing

Ah well, not to bad I think as I`am German

Let me know what you need translated and I´m trying my best. Depending how long the text is it could take a couple of days.

I was impressed with your English, particularly your recent posting in which you used the acronym WTF? lol I thought you might be from an English speaking country.

The Claes R P X manual is too large to upload here, I'd like to post it for others, but don't know how.

I'll try to email it to you. (do I have your email?) I'm not needing translation for the usual operator functions, just anything that's unusual or specific to this patcher. There was one paragraph that said the machine might produce loose threads when sewing to the left; I didn't understand the remedy. Unusual thing like that would be an example of what I could use.

If it's easier and faster, just read and record your translation and mail it to me. I'll cover all costs. Thanks a lot Constabulary.

[Constabulary]

Does anyone know what the sliding piece with the wing screw fastener in the attached picture is for and how do you know when to use it?

Claes Needle Bar Housing Assembly IMG_2864.JPG

Is this sliding piece probably a "Darning Device"?

I have sent you a PM with my email. I`ll see what I can do. but don´t expect it within the next week. It may take some time

[Constabulary]

Got the manual but there is no information regarding the sliding thing - I´m sorry.

I think it could be a darning device. But thats just a guess. Some of the Singer 29K had a (different) darning device too (Wizcraft has one).

I think when you slide it in the upper position and then tighten the screw it will disable the feeding function of the presser foot. So you can move the material freely by hand. You know what I mean?

I have converted your manual to a printer friendly version and I have dropped some unnecessary pages to reduce the file size. So here is the direct download link:

Manual Claes RPX Patcher Sewing machine (German Language)

[Evo160K]

Constabulary, that's a terrific download! Thank you very much. That will be helpful

Btw Shoepatcher was saying he was interested in an English version. You know he has an extensive collection of manuals. He may be in touch with you.

I've attached two short videos showing the machine operating using the slide mechanism. I apologize for the orientation, computers are not my thing. Video Image 2999 shows the slide up partially and the foot operating normally, although it's downward movement is restricted some. Image 3001 shows the slide up totally and the foot only moving forward and backward-----there's no up or down movement. Any thought on that? Shoepatcher was saying something about darning, but he hadn't seen the videos.

I've attached two short videos showing the machine operating using the slide mechanism. I apologize for the orientation, computers are not my thing. Video Image 2999 shows the slide up partially and the foot operating normally, although it's downward movement is restricted some. Image 3001 shows the slide up totally and the foot only moving forward and backward-----there's no up or down movement. Any thought on that? Shoepatcher was saying something about darning, but he hadn't seen the videos.

Slide Mechanism Partially up IMG_2999.MOVConstabulary, that's a terrific download! Thank you very much. That will be helpful

Edited November 9, 2014 by Evo160K