Are The Old Machines Better/more Reliable Than The New Clones?

[lranger]

Could I get some opinions as to whether you think the old walking foot machines are better than the new clone machines? Do they work trouble free longer and have less problems on a continuing basis?

It just seems to me that I see a lot of the brand new machines having problems right away.

[DoubleC]

Hi lranger. I can only speak for myself. I would have loved to have one of the older machines at one time because of the money, i.e. them being cheaper for the most part than new machines. However, I got a real deal on a Cobra 4 and yes I've had problems and they were operator error, not the machines fault. I have two old singers, not walking foots, a hand crank and a treadle and no one would expect to sit down to one of these or newer domestic singers and sew everything without reading the manual several times and practicing. Yet a lot of leather workers want to do that, want a new machine to self oil, self adjust and perhaps play music too. My first job on my Cobra was 20 oz and it sewed it like a charm. When I dropped down to 2 oz, not so good. Well first of all that's not what it's designed to do and secondly it needed some tension adjustment etc. before I could coax it to do it anyway. I'm not putting down the old machines though. There are some great ones. But there's going to be a learning curve on whatever you buy. Cheryl

[lranger]

OK, I'm not trying to disparage anybody's machines. I'm just trying to understand. Let me put it this way;

I have a Honda 4wheeler. It's a "machine" built for a specific purpose. I use the heck out of it, it takes a lickin' and just keeps on tickin".

I have a Stihl weed eater. It's a "machine" built for a specific purpose. I use the heck out of it, it takes a lickin' and just keeps on tickin".

I have a Stihl chain saw. Etc., etc.

I have a Chevy 2500 pickup. It's a machine built for a purpose. I use all these machines within the purpose they were made for and they don't constantly jump timing or quit working for no reason. They last a long time

A sewing machine is just that,,, a machine built for a specific purpose. If it's well made, I can't understand why it wouldn't just sew, and sew, and sew, and sew until you wear something out or a part breaks.

I've been a mechanic all my life. I'm used to working on machines. It's just sewing machines that I don't have a lot of experience with,,,, but I'm getting there.

Are you telling me that sewing machines are so delicate that you have to always handle them with kid gloves and baby them along all the time, and pray that you'll get a few days of work out of it before you have to work on it again? If that's the way they all are, then I don't see how they'd be worth it.

Keith

[DoubleC]

No I'm not trying to tell you that at all. For example my Cobra is supposed to be used on thick items. However through practice I have been able to to get it to do thinner things for me. However I should have a cobra 18 for thinner stuff.

I have a Chevy 2500 pickup. It's a machine built for a purpose. I use all these machines within the purpose they were made for and they don't constantly jump timing or quit working for no reason. They last a long time. As do sewing machines used for the purpose they were built for. You wouldn't buy a 2500 would you to haul a stick around? These sewing machines are not delicate at all, and is one of the biggest things you have to get over. I was worried to death I was going to 'break' this solid steel machine.

If I knew more of what you wanted to do I could advise you better because just as all trucks are not built to do the same job, neither are sewing machines. Cheryl

[lranger]

I'm not trying to figure out how to do anything, right now. I'm just trying to understand why people are having so much trouble with new machines. The reason I want to know is so I'll know whether to keep the new machine I have, or get rid of it for an older, more reliable machine. (I've already been through two months of trouble with mine.)

I understand perfectly about using a sewing machine for what it was designed to do, as in my examples. My point is, I expect machines to do what they were designed and sold to me to do. If they don't, I won't keep it.

I would like to ask you about sewing 2 oz. leather on that Class 4. I haven't looked it up, but I wouldn't think you could put a small enough needle in it for 2 oz. I use a #16. What are you using? This is another area where I have questions. The way I look at it, the machine doesn't know what you put in it, and very generally, most sewing machines work basically the same way. They all have a needle that goes up and down, a bobbin that goes around (or oscillates), and they have upper and lower thread tension adjustments. So if you can physically get a smaller needle in it so you can use smaller thread, then why shouldn't it sew thinner leather?

I believe that old things, like machinery and tools, are made better than new ones. I'm just trying to determine if that is the case with these sewing machines.

Thanks for your interest and help, Cheryl.

[silverbullet]

The machines today are not made like the old ones. The time to machine and forge items are cut to make the item cheaper, ck the price of an Adler 205 and compare it to the china clone , the machining and fitting on the Adler is done with precision on all fronts as is the price . Don't knock the clones they are built like tanks but sometimes little things crop up. The guys here who sell them stand behind there products they have gone over and cked every machine they sell , sometimes it's the people who buy them don't take the time to get to know the machine .every thing takes time to learn even a new car takes some time getting use to it. And you wouldn't use your pick up truck to haul a load of liquid cement , just not made for it . I have two old singers a 29-4 and an 111w155 plus two alders an 30-1 and a 104-25 all of these are great for the purpose they are intended. None of my machines will sew 3/4" but my limited means these work for me I'd like to sell them and get a cowboy or a cobra. But ya know I like my old ones and thanks to Bob Kovar at Toledo sewing I keep them running and in good condition . A special thanks to Bob and his dad Bob too . Gary , ck with them they sell used ones too.

[gottaknow]

Industrial sewing machines are designed to sew within their intended range of threads, needles, thickness of material, etc. When you're hobby sewing or sewing very limited volume, you can certainly "fudge" many settings to exceed the designed specs. Folks that do a fair amount of home sewing actually get quite good at making these adjustments. For anyone to say "machine a" will only do this, and "machine b" will only do that is silly. Machines overlap their specs to some degree.

However, to obtain the highest quality and the most speed needed in a factory setting, you have to pay close attention to what a given machine is designed to do. Using the wrong machine for the wrong task in a factory costs money. Better to have a wider array of machines that do things very well. My observation over the years has been that when folks try and take their hobby to the next level, they neglect the fact that there are better machines for certain things and additional machines are needed. A very common result of not getting the correct equipment is that the machine you have may get "adjusted to death". I don't know how many times I've seen this happen. The individual then wants to blame the machine. I would never use the same machine to sew 2 layers of garment leather and then try and use the same machine to sew 4 layers of heavy bridle leather.

I certainly understand the financial limitations of owning an ideal machine for everything. I have that luxury in the factory, though at times it's hard to get the bean counters to understand it. I'm fortunate in that the company I work for completely trusts my judgment when it comes to purchasing machines. I have machines from the 50's that I use everyday and ones that I bought last week. I love the old machines and I love the new machines. There simply isn't one sewing machine that will do everything.

Regards, Eric

[DoubleC]

You are most welcome. The problem is I was using (and still am) a 23 needle and 207 thread. Also to sew anything the needle thread and bobbin are supposed to form a knot in the middle. I'm going to show you a pouch I am sewing right now and explain some things I would do over if I was redoing it.

The main pouch is going to be sewn 3 layers of around 1" pig. I put a different color of lamb on the front, also about 1 " , and it will have like a welt at the bottom that is holding the fringe. And I intend to make a dog collar type closure so I'm sewing belt loops on it. To make things worse the pig is stretchy and the lamb isn't. All in all a not very well thought out project but one I wanted to make. I will post the pictures and then explain what's wrong with it and why I wish I had used a smaller machine for it.

[DoubleC]

If you look at the first pic lranger you'll see the material on the front is sewn pretty well, not perfect by any means. I held the lamb in place with double sided tape. However I sewed it before this picture and you can see in the second picture where I didn't have it taped and the pig stretched all over and the lamb didn't. This is just a prototype, first time I've made a pouch with fringe so I am learning as I go. The pouch will be rounded on the bottom. You can still see here that there's very little room for the thread to knot in the middle. Cheryl

[Tramps Leatherworking]

We all have different opinions and experiences with these machines --- I have two Singer treadles that are over 90 years old and I use them daily for leatherworking. They are easy to maintain and setup and both sew like they were new. I also have new machines that are much more finicky... It would be very interesting to see how many of today's machines are still in use and sewing perfectly 90+ years from now...

[lranger]

Thank you all for your input. I agree with you, Tramp. I wonder the same thing.

Again, I want to be clear that I'm not knocking any of the new machines here, I'm only trying to determine if the long time users of the older machines have a general opinion that the older machines are more trouble free. That's all.

Cheryl, your figures are confusing me. You said your first job on the Cobra was 20 oz. The thickest skirting leather I've seen is 15 oz.,,,, about 1/4". Do you mean you were sewing two layers of 10 oz. leather? And on the pics. They aren't very clear for me when I open them, but it looks like the material is very thin, like 2 oz., and you called it 1". Do you mean 1 mm? Anyway, thin leather, like 2 oz. garment leather, is going to move. It wiggles around, walks, and stretches. I always glue everything together to keep it from moving when I sew,,,, even when hand stitching. I've sewn a LOT of buckskin, the movin'est stuff you can get. I always glue,, even thicker vegtan, 'cause I don't want it to move. I've never tried tape because I worry that it will adversely affect the machine's ability to sew. I hope you have very good luck with your Cobra, and the pouch you're working on. I'll be watching for a post.

I've never seen a Cobra machine except in videos, but they seem pretty impressive. I am even more impressed with how thoroughly Steve explains EVERYTHING about the machine in his video. The reason I didn't buy one was because there wasn't one for light weight material, at least not that I saw.

Keith

[Constabulary]

The youngest machine I have is a Singer 29K71 from the late 1960´s and the oldest a Singer 133K from 1932. They ALL are restored machines (more or less) and they ALL run w/o problem since the day I personally have restored / refurbished them and I´m not a sewing machine mechanic.

Why do I buy used machines? 1st off all for money reasons! I believe you get the most for your money when you are buying used machines of well known manufacturers with good reputation. It also is some sort of environmental protection - I think I don´t have to explain it - or do I have to? But it of course depends on your personal situation - how fast do you need the machine and how much you can spend and how is the market in your era (or the www) and can you find a used machine with the specs you require. But used machines can be a risk as well. The more the paint is worn off, the more old oil and dust (or even rust) they have the bigger the risk is. But I personally never had bigger problems - even with very worn looking machines (as my Singer 111) but it of course is a risk and you need the time to restore them - if necessary.

I´m personally not in a hurry as I´m not "sewing for a living". It is more or less a hobby for me and I like to keep these old clunkers alive because I´m convinced of their quality and durability. I think durability is THE word what it is all about since you should "get back" what you have spent with what you are producing with the machine. And you get back the the money earlier the less you have spent for your (used) equipment and the longer your equipment lasts the more profit you can make. Simple & stupid - maybe - but isn´t it that way?

It took a lot of time and trial and error before I found and found out what I really need but that was a good learning and fun. And I´m sure I'm not done! Learning can also safe you a lot of money. The more you know about your machines the less you have to pay for service - if you know what I mean.

So you have to try to balance pro + contras of new and used machines.

Back then industrial machines were build to last and to repair and and the market was small. There were just a few known manufacturers so it was a little bit a competition. They tried to stand out with the quality of their products and technical features and not with the cheapest the price.

Nowadays you have dozens of Asian manufactures with names you will probably not hear again in 10 years - if you hear or read their names at all somewhere. They all produce (or copy) the successful machines of the well known manufacturers. The best example is the Juki 441 or Singer 111 - everybody knows them and knows their copies as well. Of course the Adler 67, 167 or Pfaff 145 and 545 are more or less copies (or as others say - an interpretation) of the Singer 111 but I think I don´t have to loose words and everybody knows that the 2 mentioned are top quality Mfg´s (among others like Juki, Seiko...).

But all the Chinese Mfg´s are in a fight for market power and I don´t think the quality will become much better in their part of the world. They for sure have learned over the years but that does not convince me. Nowadays in most cases the sale of an item depends on the price. And how can you compare quality without knowing the manufacturer? All machines look the same. The only (outside) difference it the label some on put on the machine.

And what I DO NOT like is that they all look exactly the same - they just have different labels or plaques attached - thats it! But how can you know that all these Look-A-Likes are mfg. to the same specs and have exactly the same dimensional accuracy w/o really knowing who made the machine? No problem as long as the machine is a couple of years old but how is it in 25 years? Who can tell you if this or that part will fit - I´m sure no one knows. You just have to try if a part will fir or not because no one knows the "real" manufacturer and maybe the Mfg. in China is gone already. I´m not convince that I will read names like Golden Wheel, Soje, Kaixuan, Duma, Feifeng, Jack, Jukai (not JUKI - ha ha), Jakly or what ever they are called in 50 + year.

(BTW - google JACK, JAKLY and JUKAI and tell me what you have figured - pretty obvious, isn´t it)

In one of the latest post a member was looking for an ARTISAN presser foot but Artisan was not able to deliver it!!!

Hell, what - they cannot deliver a presser foot for their own machines! WOW! And thats how it starts - now lets look how it is in 20 years. I think you still can buy Singer parts but who knows if Artisan can deliver parts for their own branded or labeled machines? Do you see what I mean?

Don´t get me wrong - I don´t think the quality is bad in general I just don´t believe they will last as long the old known brands did or still do. And the availability of parts is another story. If parts are not available the machine is dead!

But as I said before - you have to try to balance pro + contras of new and used machines. And a good documentation and a dealer with a good reputation is quite important the more complex a machine is - no matter if new or used!

Just my 2 cents (or is it a Dollar already?) - or shorty story long

[DoubleC]

lranger, this is a light weight project I'm doing on my cobra. I'll show you my first one, 10 oz doubled....You can see it was so hard for me to hold the bends that I had to wet the leather to roll it to sew.

Edited November 18, 2014 by DoubleC

[Constabulary]

cool chair by the way nice idea to put LTD´s on it to attach the straps.

[lranger]

I see what you mean, Cheryl. I just love to see someone save something that's old so it can live a while longer. It is a nice chair. Just right for a cowgirl.

Constabulary, nicely said, and I agree with you 100%. I WAS in a hurry when I bought my machine because I had a lot of work come in and I needed to get to working fast. Now, though, I have time to learn more about the machines and find a good oldie. Actually, my little Pfaff portable is the one doing the work now, but it will allow me to get it done and give me time. For a small home machine, it is doing a fine job,,,, and I only paid $15.00 for it. (I did have to partially disassemble it to free it up because it wouldn't sew when I bought it.)

Thank you everyone for your replies. You've answered my question.

[Colt W Knight]

Older machines were made so well, sewing machine manufacturers use to destroy older models in order to sell newer models.

I had an abused 50's model Singer that still sewed like brand new after I cleaned it up.

[catskin]

Iranger, It has to do with knowing how to use a machine. How long would your truck , chain saw, etc. last if you had some kid who had never seen one before and did not care, operate them??? Same with sewing machines, you might be a mechanic but that doesn't mean you understand sewing machines the same as I might or somebody else does. Most six year olds can do a hundred times more then I can with a computer but I have yet to find one who knows one tenth as much as I do on making and fitting harness. So while you and all the others that are dising newer machines I would be willing to bet you will NOT be sewing in 90 years time. I have 5 machines ranging in age from OLD OLD to a Cowboy 4500 all do excellent work if they are used right all can give no end to trouble if the operator doesn't know how to use them. No different from your machines.

Edited November 20, 2014 by catskin

[lranger]

Catskin, please show me a quote where I, or others have dissed the new machines.

I merely asked for the opinion of long time, experienced users of sewing machines for sewing leather, whether they think the old ones are better/more reliable than the new ones.

I personally have always believed that old machinery and tools are made better than new ones. Just take guns for example: Why are pre-'64 Winchester model 94s worth more than post '64 model 94s?

[Colt W Knight]

Catskin, please show me a quote where I, or others have dissed the new machines.

I merely asked for the opinion of long time, experienced users of sewing machines for sewing leather, whether they think the old ones are better/more reliable than the new ones.

I personally have always believed that old machinery and tools are made better than new ones. Just take guns for example: Why are pre-'64 Winchester model 94s worth more than post '64 model 94s?

Same deal with Sewing Machines, By 64 Winchester realized the the cost of production was too high, and the customer wouldn't be able to afford their product, especially with steep competition from the Remington 700. They had to find ways to produce the rifle cheaper. The Ithaca 37 fell to the Remington 870 for the same reason. If Singer was to make a new sewing machine with the same rock solid construction, no one could afford it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Colt W Knight

[lranger]

Absolutely correct, Colt, but I also believe people took more pride in their products back in the old days.

The pre-'64 model 94 had better steel, more accurate machining, and stronger/better action than the post 94s, and the reason was to save money on production. So in my opinion, the older Winchester is better/more reliable than the post '64s. That does not mean that the post 64's are no good, it just means I'd rather have a pre-'64,,, because it's better.

[Colt W Knight]

Absolutely correct, Colt, but I also believe people took more pride in their products back in the old days.

The pre-'64 model 94 had better steel, more accurate machining, and stronger/better action than the post 94s, and the reason was to save money on production. So in my opinion, the older Winchester is better/more reliable than the post '64s. That does not mean that the post 64's are no good, it just means I'd rather have a pre-'64,,, because it's better.

Now I am really getting off topic, but I love talking about firearms. ( I think the newest Model 70s built by FN in South Carolina would give those old pre 64s a run for their money, and shoot more accurately.

In 1940, the avg US income was 1,368$/year, and a new Model 70 was 106$ - that represents 7.75% of the purchasers income.

in 2014, the ave US income was 53,891$/year, and a new Model 70 is 899$ - that represents 1.67% of the purchasers income.

Inflation calculator says 106$ in 1940 = 1802.23$ in 2014

If anyone has similar info on sewing machines, I would love to see the comparison.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Colt W Knight

[gottaknow]

Something else to ponder. All of those old machines, though well made, still had quirks, design errors etc. At some point in that machines lifespan, a good mechanic got a hold of it and as a result, it's still sewing strong. The absolute darkest years for industrials was after the apparel companies began leaving the country. Many of those companies made machines in the US. Because we couldn't compete with their low labor dollars, the machine companies began to develop machines that were meant to cut sewing time for a given job. Needle positioner systems were the new rage starting in the late 60's. Singer made a 2281 with a top shaft mount motor and positioning system all in one. Every function was controlled with a huge array of circuit boards in a huge box under the machine. The underbed trimmers on these machines were a nightmare. Every single one we bought had to be modified and still they sucked. In the early 80's, Union Special made a needle feed lockstitch machine with a needle positioner, foot lift (air) and underbed trimmer. They sewed really well, but again, the knife system sucked.

I guess my point is this. Sewing machines evolve every day. Yes, the early machinists were amazing. So is a cnc machine. The new Juki 9010-SH needle feed lockstitch will out sew a Singer 211 walking foot machine. We are using more of those in our luggage division, replacing triple feed machines. I've been a sewing machine mechanic for 34 years. Apprenticing a new mechanic takes 5 years minimum, in a factory, 40 hrs/wk. I do love my old machines I still have in service. I have a Reece 101 keyhole buttonhole machine (think Levi's) that has 400,000,000 stitches sewn. (has a counter). Made in the USA in 1962. It will soon become a backup machine to a new Reece buttonhole now made overseas. We'll see.

Regards, Eric

[Constabulary]

Catskin - if you are pointing on me you probably got me wrong. I don´t say the new (or Chinese made) machines are bad, most are for sure not bad. I just doubt that they are as long living as the machines form the 1930´s - 1950´s I even think that the tolerances are tighter than 50 years ago - but is it good or is it bad? It pretty much depends on the materials (f.i. forged iron or just cast iron) they have used. A friend of mine once told me that nowadays when you see a lot of chrome or nickel plated parts on a machine (not only sewing machines) it is pretty obvious that the parts are not forged. It most likely is cheap cast iron and the chrome / nickel plating just covers the poor casting and shall make it look like high quality. Often enough old simple technology is longer lasting than anything new build. But I thing the example with the Artisan feet that I gave is pretty obvious. To me it looks like the machine was just made to sell fast and to make profit. If they were made to last I think spare parts shouldn´t be a problem for a 10 or 20 years old machine.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Constabulary

[lranger]

I totally understand that the manufacturing concept changed, starting around the 1960's I think, aiming to save on production costs and reduce the life of products in order to increase the bottom line of manufacturers and to keep the world economies rolling. I don't even disagree with that concept, to a certain degree. In the old days, they made things to last,,,, even toys. Nowadays, they only want things to last as long as what the warranty is, or less, and they have that down really good.

My problem with it is that they have gone so far with it that you have to be really careful when you buy something or else it may not even work when you get home with it. I am particularly aggravated with the automotive industry, but it applies to everything. Maybe it's just my age,,, older people tend to like the old things, and resist change, wanting things to stay the way they were. The world and economies have changed, but it sure is getting hard to buy a new vehicle these days, for one thing. My brother says I need to quit living in the past. Maybe he's right, but I still think things were better in the past in a lot of ways.

[Tejas]

This topic reminds me an often retold quality control story.

'In the early 70’s, Ford Motor Company bought an interest in the Japanese automobile company, Mazda. Shortly after the partnership started, Ford discovered that the Japanese manufactured transmissions were seven times more reliable and smoother running than the American-made version. The management team at Ford disassembled the Japanese transmission and to their surprise, discovered that the parts were meticulously machined to a tolerance way beyond industry specifications. The blueprints allowed a tolerance of plus or minus a few millimeters, and while the American-made gears varied within the allowable tolerance, all of the Japanese-made gears were right on the desired value with a negligible amount of variation. The American transmission was built with a standard of “good enough” because it met the acceptable levels for tolerance.'

https://www.salesgravy.com/sales-articles/professional-development/professional-goals-pursue-excellence-dont-settle-for-just-good-enough.html

Apparently, US machinists set the milling machines at one end of the tolerance and ran the machines until wear on the cutting tools resulted in parts at the other end of the tolerance. Japanese machinists reset the machines on each part to the desired tolerance.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Tejas