Here's The Deuce

[Goldshot Ron]

Randy,

I only mentioned the seat pocket because it was taught to me by Al Gould, the saddle instructor for the Leather Show in Prescott, to position the riders center of gravity over the stirrups. The seat pocket should be approximately between the stirrup leather grooves on the bars and the front of the cantle starting point.

Also, I purchased Cary Schwarz's cd for saddle making steps, and even though I like his work and style, Watt's cd is easier to follow. I don't think I have any tapes, CDs, or books that really give a lot of attention on how to really lay in a comfortable seat and it's placement. I think that's a technique the maker has to perfect.

Ron

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Randy, just a thought. Years ago, when I first started out making saddles, I wanted to do so for many reasons, one of which was that I wanted to have a saddle that was as comfortable as an old Ryon I had. I made templates of that saddle, front to back. and side to side so I could replicate that seat. They have served me well, I have never had a customer that was dissatisfied with my seats. I attribute that to those templates. I use them on both metal strainer and leather ground seats.

Just sayin"

Bob

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Cantle binding and welts both look good for only your second saddle. I've seen guys who have made 50 or more saddles and STILL can't get the welts right. There is so much more information out there now than when I started building. Good job. One of the most apparent things to me at first look is your skirt pattern. It needs a little cleaning up. But I know all too well that sometimes that pattern looks ok and then when you look at it from a distance after everything's finished you say to yourself "What the hell???" It looks not quite balanced. I would shorten it up just a bit in front. The saddle has a relatively small seat size and small and shallow skirt pattern, and I just think shortening it up in front would balance it out. Also, there is a "point" on the rear of the skirt where the transition or curve from vertical to horizontal was not evened out. I'll spend a lot of time looking at the skirt from half way across the shop and from different angles before I cut a stitch groove, because once you do that, you're committed. Have the skirt on the tree when you do this. Keep us up to date on the Will James. I have one on the way.

[rktaylor]

Ron,

I appreciate you mentioning it, because the ground seat is the sculpted part of the saddle. The Cary Schwarz DVD I mentioned is called "The Ground Seat" and is produced by the Traditional Cowboy Arts Association. I think it's $45 on Amazon. I patched a triangular piece of leather in my Will James over the weekend to move the low point on the seat forward. I don't think it's as far forward as it should be, but it's a lot better. I am starting to see the triangle bicycle seat that is often mentioned. I would like to go to Prescott, but it's not in the budget this year.

Thanks again,

Randy

[rktaylor]

Bob,

I have thought about getting a good profile gauge and modeling a good seat. I guess since you did it that just means is was another good idea that I didn't act on. When I look at most of the saddles in my tack room, I am reminded of a statement from Stohlman's book regarding using poor saddles to learn construction. Basically, you can't learn how to make a good saddle, if all you do is look at poorly constructed saddles. I have a friend who recently purchased a really nice saddle. I may profile the seat on it.

Take care,

Randy

[rktaylor]

Big Sioux,

Thanks for the compliments. Those aren't the 50th welts, but they aren't the first either. They're just the first ones I kept. The skirts were modeled after the saddle this is intended to replace (reference comment to Bob above about what to copy). They don't look too out of balance to me, but I can see your point. I think they actually may have ended up a little shallower in the rear after I blocked them. The skirts on the reference saddle are not blocked. I see what you are talking about on the back of the skirts. I think the rear of the skirts gets straight too soon and the straight edge is to long. I hear Jeremiah Watt echoing in my ear, "There are no straight lines on a round skirt saddle." I'll do better on the Will James.

You are right, there is a lot of educational material available. Some is really good, some is ok and some not so good. I have a little of all three categories. What I use most are the Stohlman books, Watt DVD, Harry Adams' book, and this forum (in no particular order).

Try to stay warm up in SD.

Randy

[rdl123]

Randy,

I see there is some discussion about ground seats...I agree that it is the one area of saddle building that is the most subjective and I believe it is probably, on working saddles at least, what really sets one maker apart from the other more than anything else...

I believe everyone will have a slightly different take on what is comfortable / functional depending on riding style, body type, leg length etc.

I have found Steve Brewer's how to on this site very helpful. it is available here: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=19473

I wish I could get my seats to look like his. Also, have a look at Steve Mason's websites - His saddles look to me like ones I could spend all day in...http://www.stevemasonsaddles.com/saddles.htm

Also, I know the all leather vs tin ground seat is a huge debate - However, I believe that for a start-up maker the all leather option gives more flexibility as you can skive and skive and skive and, leather is in my opinion, is easier to shape then tin.

Anyhow, happy building and I am looking forward to seeing the Will James rig!

Ron.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Randy--staying warm in SD right now is something we can only dream about. Seven below this morning, which if it's calm out, isn't all that bad. But there's a northeast breeze that makes it feel damn cold. Forgot to plug the diesel pickup in overnight, so it balked at starting. Chores took longer than normal due to having to come in and restore circulation and feeling to my hands--twice. When it's -7 outside, the pitchfork handle is -7 also! I have friends in Canada where it gets -40 for 2 weeks at a time. I don't know how they do it. And their chores take all day. Have a good one!

[Billy H]

Hi Randy,

It has been fun to see another fellow saddle maker go through trials and tribulations in the progression of making a better saddle.

I think you're doing a great job considering that it is #2.

Ground Seat---- is a real challenge for me, it seems that with every saddle I do without fail I question wether or not I have achieved my goal of the perfect seat. The last saddle I did felt just right, but when riding different horses I feel my center changing a little bit. Meaning each horse has a slightly different shape (hope that makes sense). I have built both Tin and all Leather seats and I find that I can get a better shape especially for us short legged fellows.

Big Souix----- I feel your pain buddy, couple of days ago it was -19. Once I got cold I couldn't warm up. Best Regards Billy

[Billy H]

Left out the part that the all leather seat works better for me in getting a better ground seat. Need to do a better job of checking what I wrote. Billy