rcasimir Report post Posted January 13, 2015 I'm working on my first batch of vinegaroon and, unfortunately, some soap fell into it. I did the best i could to filter it out and try again but the batch now has a greenish color. Should i toss it and make a new batch or wait a few days? I just made it today a couple of hours ago and i don't want to waste time on a failed batch. I'm trying to dye a full length trench coat. Any help is greatly appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groovytech Report post Posted January 13, 2015 Toss it, and start over. Better luck this time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 13, 2015 Are you absolutely sure? I just took a whiff of it and it has a vinegar smell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) The only problem I could see from th soap is if it had a ph above 8. Neutral range for PH is 6-8. If the soaps PH is high enough and you got enough inthe mix it could change the PH of the vinegar mix and make it less effective. If you Know the brand of soap pull up the MSDS (material safety data sheet) on the computer. It will show the PH. Thatwould be the only concern Icould see. If you have the ability to test the PH (ph strips commonly sold for pool supplies) if the mix still shows a PH of 2-3 you are good to go. As an example Dial liquid soap has a PH of 5.8-6.9 that pretty much puts it in the neutral range and a little on the acidic side. It would have a negligable effect on the vinegaroon. There actually is an advantage to the soap in that soap is a surfactant and will allow easier penetraion of the liwuid into the laeather. Otherwise dump the batch out rinse the steel wool of good.Then start over. Vinegar is cheap. It will take you a couple of weeks to get a good batch of vinegaroon. Edited January 13, 2015 by camano ridge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 13, 2015 my bad, it was ultra downy fabric softener and the ph is 2.5 - 3.1. and i'm going to buy some hydrogen peroxide because i read that it speeds up the chemical reaction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 13, 2015 That surprises me as vinegar is in the 2-3 range did not realize downy would be so acidic. As long as it is acidic it should not be a problem. The vinegar disolves the steel wool to form Ferric acatate. THe soap should not interfere with that process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 13, 2015 thank goodness for that. How will I know it's still acidic? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 13, 2015 What I meant is that both the vinegar and the downy are acidic neither are a base/alkaline so there should be no change to the PH. Neutralization or raising th PH would only occur if you were adding a base/alkaline. My only concern would be adding the hydrogen peroxide. I do not know if there is anything in the fabrissoftner that would react with the fabric softner. You never said how much you got in the roon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 14, 2015 it couldn't have been more than a tablespoon of fabric softener. And what I meant to say is what are warning signs that I should watch out for in the next few days? I heard that the acid in the roon can run out before it's ready. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Just watch for the steel wool to disolve and keep adding wool until it does not dissolve any more. Have some scrap leather test strips handy. I don't know how quickly the hydrogen peroxide speeds things up I don't use it and try to avoid using chemicals if I can. So I just wait for mine. However if you do use the hydrogen peroxide wait a few days stick a piece of leather in the roon if it starts to change color you are on your way. Not sure what you mean by run out a standard bottle of vinegar will give you roon. When you do use the vinegroon make sure you give your leather a quick soda bath to neutralize the acid. I have been makinf vinegaroon and have never had a problem getting a good batch. Did you make sure to clean your steel wool either by burning or with acetone. Edited January 14, 2015 by camano ridge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 15, 2015 just added the peroxide and this is the result. I plan on waiting a couple hours for it to stick. Is there any other steps before i put it on the coat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 15, 2015 Ok, you said you are putting the roon on a coat? Do you know what kind of leather the coat is and what kind of finnish is on the coat? Before you apply it to the coat take a piece of scrap leather and dip in the roon to see if it turns the leather yet. You may have to apply a little neatsfoot oil or olive oil to get the nice rich black. Once you are ready to try it on the coat apply a small amount somwhere on the coat out of site to see if it works and you achieve the results you want. Again be ready to give it a bit of a baking soda bath and then a clear water rinse. It seems to me you are rushing the Vinegaroon process just a bit. Usually after you have reached the Ferrous acitate stage and have good roon you want it to off gas for a couple of days to get rid of some of the vinegar odor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 15, 2015 I have to rush it. I need it finished by next Thursday. Right now its sort fizzing and smells of vinegar, so hopefully its done soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 15, 2015 Would i need to stir it anymore or no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
radar67 Report post Posted January 15, 2015 You are not going to get a good solution of vinegroon in a few days. It usually takes a couple of weeks to work through the process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 15, 2015 You can stir it. Your chunks of sttel wool look pretty big, I would have sheredded them up a little more. The fizzing is the reaction of the vinegar and your hydrogen peroxide on the steel wool. That process will continue until the mix has disollved as much of the steel wool as it can. It will not be over in just a few hours. Let it go through it's process for a couple of days undisturbed and then check with a piece of scrap leather to see if you get a good color change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DoubleC Report post Posted January 16, 2015 Your 'roon looks oily on top which means the steel wool had oil in it and you're supposed to wash it out. Then you dump downy in it for that fresh soft feeling vinegaroon. THEN you run out and get peroxide to try and speed the process and have it done in one day? You are about to ruin a trench coat. I've been using vinegaroon for 3 years and never heard of using peroxide. You also didn't say what kind of leather and if it's not undyed veg tanned you're about to ruin a trench coat. If you don't give the 'roon time to work you're going to ruin a trench coat? I repeated myself because you asked for help here but didn't listen to the suggestions. So when you ruin a trench coat (4th time) please don't come back here and say we steered you wrong. Chryl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Cheryl was a bit more direct then I have been. However I agree with Cheryl. I did say that you need to clean the steel wool with acetone or by burning off. I asked what type of leather because it is important. If it is Chrome Tanned the roon is not going to have the effect you want. I have read articles that say you can make a batch in an hour and half instead of two weeks by using hydrogen peroxide. If that were true eveyone would be doing it that way. If there is oil on the steel wool it will effecte how the vinegar reacts with the steel wool. Basically you are rusting the steel wool, oil will slow that process. You are not dying the leather you are chemiicaly changing the leather so if it is already colored it is not going to have the effect you want. Again do a test strip to see if it turns black. If you really want to try vinegarooning the coat do a test on a small area out of site, before you try vinegarooning the whole coat. Edited January 16, 2015 by camano ridge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DoubleC Report post Posted January 16, 2015 Camano, you were a lot nicer than I was. I hope being direct will save his project. Maybe not but we tried. Cheryl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Northmount Report post Posted January 16, 2015 Has to be veg tanned leather to work. Has to have the tannins to react and turn black. Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 16, 2015 none of the tutorials I went to mentioned anything about this only working on vinegar tanned oil. Here's what the leather on the coat looks like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Sorry to say it is not going to work on that finished leather. Again you can try it on a small out of the way area to prove me wrong The other thing it will not change the color of the stitching it is not a dye. It works on Vegtable tanned leather. It is not going to work on chrome tanned. Chrome tanning uses chromium salts in the tanning process. Veg tanning uses the tannins derived from thinks such as oak bark vegtable roots etc. The tannins are infused in the leather during the tanning process. The reaction of the tannins with the viegroon is part of the chemical process that causes the blackening. With out the tannins the blackening is not going to happen. Even if it was veg tanned leather the finish would not allow the vinegaroon to penetrate properly and if you got any colorationat all it would be splochy. Since it looks like it has already been dyed a light gray even on veg tanned leather the vinegaroon would not change the color again it is a chemical reaction not a dye. "Vinegaroon, or vinegar black, is a natural method of coloring leather using iron and vinegar that dates back to ancient Rome. The vinegar solution reacts with the natural tannins found in vegetable-tanned leather, creating a beautiful dark slate gray. As vinegaroon is not a dye process, the color never fades or rubs off. Its permanence was preferred by leather workers throughout the world for centuries until modern dye methods were introduced over the last 150 years." Edited January 16, 2015 by camano ridge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rcasimir Report post Posted January 16, 2015 for what it's worth, thank you all for your advice. I'm just gonna cut my losses and move on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camano ridge Report post Posted January 16, 2015 Your welcome. Sorry we could not help you on a more positive note. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
