Dye Rubbing Off

[MorningStarL]

I've added a couple of pictures of sheaths I really did shed some blood, sweat and tears working on yesterday. All y'all have been so good with advice -- I think these, especially the wider skinner sheath, have some of the best work I've done.

Once I'd stitched and done the edge-burnishing, I swabbed on a good coat of Fiebring's USMC Black leather dye. I let it dry and then rubbed off the powdery residue. (I only get that with the USMC Black and not with brown dyes.) Then another coat of the black dye, and left them hanging overnight, well over 12 hours.

Today I rubbed the paraffin into the edges and buffed that. I'm trying different finishes. I don't like the SuperSheen -- makes my leather look like plastic. I have Eco-Flo matte and satin finishes, and they've left streaks on sheaths before. I prefer a lower-gloss finish. Today I tried mink oil that was in the shop from someone else's work. Rubbed it on, let it dry for a couple of hours, rubbed the surface then put it on the buffing wheel, and that's when the black dye started coming off the leather. You can see the patchiness here in the pictures.

So -- now what? My partner thought maybe the mink oil acted as a solvent on the dye, but the dye was dry. I know the thread I used yesterday was more heavily waxed than usual and I'm wondering if I transferred some by my fingers and made a resist -- but it didn't show up til I buffed the finish. I'm thinking of trying the homemade finish - got beeswax and vegetable oil to melt it into. The one I saw has vodka in and there's good reason not to keep drinkin' liquor around here -- I'm going to see what I can find about using rubbing alcohol instead.

[leatherwytch]

I like super shene but then I like shiny. Have you tried Satin shene? Use the spray and save yourself problems. I don't use mink oil because it will take the finish off. I also don't use fieblings. I prefer the water stains, and pro dyes. All dyes and stains will come off a tad but not a lot. Do not use rubbing alcohol.

[MorningStarL]

Thanks. I sometimes go very shiny, if I'm building a sheath for someone's uncle's knife he carried and was shipwrecked with three times in WWII, for example. It seems to fit. (I really did one for that kind of knife.) I'll look at Satin Shene. Thanks!

[wlg190861]

I have great success with resolene 40/60water to seal the leather after dye dries, about five coats. Never use mink oil, it's bad for leather. The best conditioner I have found is Aussie.

[TwinOaks]

I think the problem here is that 'mink oil' is not a sealer, it's just a conditioner with hydrophobic properties. You can condition the leather, but you still need to seal it afterwards with one of the -sheen products, resolene, or a lacquer finish.

[wlg190861]

  On 4/4/2015 at 12:27 AM, wlg190861 said:

I have great success with resolene 40/60water to seal the leather after dye dries, about five coats. Never use mink oil, it's bad for leather. The best conditioner I have found is Aussie.

By the way buff by hand with soft cloth, buffing wheel creates to much heat and will ruin your finish

[terrypen]

I've heard that the black dyes are all like that and need more buffing than the other colors.

I just took a small piece of leather and marked lines on it and labeled them for different finishes and number of coats.

I tested Resolene, Resolene diluted, Tan Kote, and Tan Kote diluted with water. This started out as a test for a resist for lettering, but you could do the same for using them as a finish.

I really don't like Resolene, pure Tan Kote is really shiny especially after 2 or 3 coats. The diluted Tan Kote left me with the lightest color. I will probably have to do this again to verify my findings.

Does anyone else have any test strips they have done with finishes? Would be interesting to see.

[JREESER1]

I have only had any luck at all with the Fiebring USMC Black by dip-dying. I put enough dye in a plastic storage container of the appropriate size to coat the piece as I dredge it like putting egg batter on a drum stick. Let it dry thoroughly, at least 24 hours, then buff it like crazy at least 3 times. Then put the finish you wish and buff some more. Mine have turned out very well with no rub off.

jr

Edited April 4, 2015 by JREESER1

[Dwight]

Very simply, . . . black USMC ruboff is created by lack of serious buffing.

I can buff off a belt, . . . and a pancake holster, . . . wear em all day, . . . zero rub off, . . . but only because I am serious about buffing.

Also, . . . dilute the USMC dye 50/50 with Feibings thinner. It will still dye as dark, . . . but will only have about 1/3 of the surface pigment to buff off. And give up the dauber dyeing, . . . dip dye it, . . . use a 9 x 13 cake pan.

My favorite USMC finish is made of 50/50 (by weight), . . . virgin bees wax and neatsfoot oil, . . . heated and stirred, . . . then allowed to solidify. I use cupcake wrappers in a cupcake pan, . . . the product goes on like paste shoe polish, . . . use a low setting heat gun or hair dryer to melt it into the leather, . . . let it dry overnight, . . . buff the next day. It will take at least a couple of coats, . . . but I love the finish, . . . it is an "old fashioned" finish that can be turned almost as glossy as you are willing to work it up to.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited April 4, 2015 by Dwight

[MorningStarL]

Thanks, everyone. I'll ditch the mink oil. I thought it would do what I wanted because the tin says it is a sealer and has silicone in as well as lanolin and the mink oil. I'll try dip-dying when I use the USMC black. Small operation here and I never buy more than a quart - it's half gone now - so I've never dipped them. It would make some of the little crevices from sewing on the belt loops easier, for sure.

I'd still like to find something that isn't glossy for the finish coat. Just going to keep on trying.

[leatherwytch]

The non glossy is matt or satin shene

[MorningStarL]

Thanks.

I just found out there's a dyes and finishes forum. I'd only searched this one.

[heydox]

I would suggest vinegaroon. It will not rub off like the USMC black dye because it chemically changes the leather rather than dying it black. It will take a couple days to have a batch ready, but it is a time proven way to get a very rich black.

[MorningStarL]

I never thought of that. My partner's used it on wood. I'll see about brewing up a batch.

I know now that part of my problem's been that I'm not leaving things to dry long enough.

[Gump]

I personally don't like the USMC black, as it just doesn't work near as well as Fiebings Pro oil dye. But the problem you are having has to do with the hide more than the dye. I had one double shoulder from Tandy that gave me the same problem as you are having. I had to wash the hide with alcohol to get it to absorb the dye. The dye clearly didn't penetrate the leather on your projects. I returned a bottle of dye because I thought there was something wrong with it, but the replacement was the same. After washing with alcohol and dyeing, I used neatsfoot oil to replace oils removed by the alcohol. When dyeing with a dauber the dye should suck right into the leather until it reaches saturation, then pool slightly on the surface before absorbing. This should be enough to fully cover without having any serious rub off problems. Drying usually only takes a few hours, and then it can be buffed. Applying to much dye will only cause more rub off and stiffen the leather. As for sealing with anything, I usually only use neatsfoot oil on black projects and don't have any problems as long as water still beads on the surface. When water starts to absorb, then it is time to re-oil. I have 30year old knife sheaths that still look good.

[MorningStarL]

Bingo! I used to always clean off a sheath with rubbing alcohol last thing before I dyed it, and once I read your reply, Gump, I realized I've forgotten to do that at all this winter. I bet that was it.

Do you think if I went back to it now and cleaned them with alcohol and tryed the dye again, it would help? Or is it too late? The mink oil should have penetrated by now. Thanks for the reminder.

[Gump]

The old adage is "you can always dye it black" should definitely work in this case.

[MorningStarL]

:-)

[wlg190861]

For a rich black. You cannot beat vinegaroon . I let my vinegaroon sit for 7 days before straining an using, gives a very rich black that, dyes will not match. The best thing is, it will never rub off no

matter how hard you rub

[MorningStarL]

I'm going to try that. I've been away from leatherwork for over a week -- work deadline I wasn't sure I was going to make. My partner says he's sure there's some around here somewhere -- he made it to use on walnut shelving. Be a lot easier just to make some from scratch tomorrow.

[thekid77]

  On 4/4/2015 at 3:07 AM, MorningStarL said:

Thanks, everyone. I'll ditch the mink oil. I thought it would do what I wanted because the tin says it is a sealer and has silicone in as well as lanolin and the mink oil. I'll try dip-dying when I use the USMC black. Small operation here and I never buy more than a quart - it's half gone now - so I've never dipped them. It would make some of the little crevices from sewing on the belt loops easier, for sure.

I'd still like to find something that isn't glossy for the finish coat. Just going to keep on trying.

Seriously take my word for this....ditch all the black dyes that you are using and buy the Tandy Black Waterstain......I can tell you that this stuff, after allowing it to dry will not come off even if your holding the dyed piece in running water....

save yourself a pain in the rear and just use this stuff trust me I will be the first person to say that I am not all that thoroughly impressed with many Tandy products but this is a quality product that is the end-all for anyone dyeing things black.

[wlg190861]

Take a quart jar, stuff it with steelwool pads, about 4 to 5 #0000 pull them apart, stuff in jar, fill with apple cider vinegar and let sit for 7 days, strain into another jar, I use denim. An you will have nice dark black dye

[NVLeatherWorx]

It was mentioned once before but I will say it again, don't use alcohol on leather. It can dry the leather out very bad and can also cause damage to the material that could lead to other issues down the road. I would also like to recommend that you try using PURE NEATSFOOT OIL as a conditioner, this product is natural and was designed for this very purpose. It has been in use within this trade for decades and has an excellent track record (proven mind you) when compared to chemical compounds that are so commonly found in use today. It is the way that we were once taught and I have been using it for over 40 years with beautiful success. It is true that all of the Fiebing's dyes in black tend to require much more rubbing than the other colors but, as stated within the content of this thread, if the buffing is done vigorously and with a motivation to actually remove the remaining pigment residue and bring a luster to the leather then you should be okay when it comes to the final steps.

I am sure that by now you have been able to find a wealth of opinions on this very subject within the Dyes, Stains, etc. section (which is loaded with this very issue and a ton of responses). Good luck with your quest and let us all know what you end up using and how it works out for you.

[MorningStarL]

Thanks, everyone. Richard, do you use a finish coat over the neatsfoot oil? And if so, what?

I'm gonna start a jar of vinegaroon tonight, but I'm going out for dinner with two good-lookin' men first.

[NVLeatherWorx]

I have been using a 50/50 blend of Resolene and water for decades. It goes on lighter than the full strength Resolene and it also gives you a duller finish, very matte finish like. I typically apply at least 3 coatings to the leather and then check to make sure that the finish looks even, if it needs another coating or two then it gets it. The biggest thing to remember during finishing is to make sure that each application of a product (oil, dye, stain, antique paste, acrylic, etc.) onto the leather gets to dry and set for at least 24 hours. And always make sure that your leather has had at least that same amount of time to dry after the last tooling/stamping has been done before you start the finishing. Drying overnight, as most people do, may not actually mean that the leather has truly dried out or that one of the finishing products has properly dried/set; humidity and other natural factors in the shop environment can have an impact on the leather being able to properly do this. Even here in the desert environment where my average humidity is about 8% (sometimes even less) I still give it that amount of time to guarantee that the next step takes properly. And, on a final note, don't over oil your leather; it will hold that oil like a sponge if it gets too much and that will cause a whole different list of issues that can't be fixed very easily.