Lacing - getting started

[UKRay]

I am sitting surrounded by a mass of open text books (Bruce Grant, etc etc) 'cos I've spent the afternoon wrestling with the lacing on a belt. Sadly, it doesn't matter how many times I refer to the books, start from a different point, lick my fingers, scratch my head or re-thread the lacing needle (I have done that a lot!) it still looks a horrible, horrible mess. I guess it serves me right for getting over-confident. "Of course I can learn this in an afternoon..." Yeah, right, if it was that easy everyone would be doing it...

Could someone please explain to me - preferably in big pictures and words of one syllable - how I get the holes in the right place;

how should I start the lacing so it looks neat and just as importantly - how the heck do I stop?

I would ideally like to end up with something similar to Freak's glorious basket weave lacing: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?a...st&id=14139 but I accept that this may be a tad ambitious. Should I have started with something easier?

Could you please be generous and contribute your tricks, tips and suggestions before I make any more mess?

[Tina]

I am sitting surrounded by a mass of open text books (Bruce Grant, etc etc) 'cos I've spent the afternoon wrestling with the lacing on a belt. Sadly, it doesn't matter how many times I refer to the books, start from a different point, lick my fingers, scratch my head or re-thread the lacing needle (I have done that a lot!) it still looks a horrible, horrible mess. I guess it serves me right for getting over-confident. "Of course I can learn this in an afternoon..." Yeah, right, if it was that easy everyone would be doing it...

Could someone please explain to me - preferably in big pictures and words of one syllable - how I get the holes in the right place;

how should I start the lacing so it looks neat and just as importantly - how the heck do I stop?

I would ideally like to end up with something similar to Freak's glorious basket weave lacing: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?a...st&id=14139 but I accept that this may be a tad ambitious. Should I have started with something easier?

Could you please be generous and contribute your tricks, tips and suggestions before I make any more mess?

Did send you a mail:-)

[electrathon]

Start with a double loop lacing first, then move on to the harder ones.

[8thsinner]

When your putting your lacing needle on:

Cut the taper longer, insert, screw, undo it and snip off just below where it stopped going in. This will put the toughest and thickest part of the lace where it needs to be.

If your doing the mexican braid put in a dozen or so stitches at a time, then add braiding grease, the one in grant's book has always worked well enough for me. Tighten up the stitches using the same pressure each time. If you do one stitch at a time you will tend to use differing amounts of pressure, so use the same pressure 12 times in a row then start more stitching.

If you have a scratch awl, or long needle etc. As the lace is leaving the hole, use the needle to apply reverse pressure keeping it flat just out of the hole. This applies on every pass, whether it's coming out or going in.

The best book to use with regards to stopping and joining the braided lace in Al stohlmans decorative lacing, theres a picture for every step. Theres also a link recently posted here with the details, I can't find it right now. But it would help a lot.

Another thing, If things get tricky or you start to lose concentration just stop and do something else for a while, give your eyes and your brain a chance to slow down and relax, It's just another muscle.

Hope that helps you out for the moment.

Forgot to add, your holes might be too small, you punched them all first right, what size are they and what width is your lace?

Edited November 20, 2008 by 8thsinner

[UKRay]

Forgot to add, your holes might be too small, you punched them all first right, what size are they and what width is your lace?

Thanks muchly for the good advice guys - yes I punched all the holes (slots would be a better description) first. They are just about the same width as the lace which looks to be about 1/8" wide - standard Tandy purchased on a reel lace. I punched them with a three pronged lacing chisel. I wondered if I should have made round holes but the picture I found easiest to follow - yeah, right... had slots so I did it that way.

Which are best/easiest - slots or round holes? Does it matter? I noticed that the Tandy kits all have holes... there is probably a reason for this...

[8thsinner]

Holes are way easier than slots with those dimensions.

If you have a triangular marlin spike that will fit the width, I would suggest dampening the leather a tiny bit, and stretch the holes with the triangle, The point of which faces the edge of the belt, Push the spike against the outside edge of the belt as you do this, unless one of your holes seems wonky in which case adjust to fit.

Obviously you can't push it too much, just use common sense here. but tread carefully, damp leather as you know holds it's scars.

Or chop up a bit of wood scrape and sand it smooth and use it. If your making one make one edge blunter, this is the side that would face the edge of the belt, all you want to do is round the slot on two planes.

It will help your inner sides but still keep a fairly neat even flat appearance on the inner edge of the belt, It will also make room for your lace to go through properly.

If you get stuck with a certain hole pull the first strand against the appropriate side which it will pull against, stick the scratch awl through wiggle it a bit on the inside and then try.

If your stuck with a hole on the first entry, you need to stretch the hole more.

Seems I always forget something right now.

Generally speaking holes are much much tougher. Not that lacing done right should lead to the leather stretching and ripping but there you go.

The round holes spread the tension all around itself, it will deform but rarely split.

The bag I am using at the moment most of the holes are ovals, It needs replaced big time.

Edited November 21, 2008 by 8thsinner

[Rawhide]

I haven't heard anyone's use of a lacing fid. I prefer to use slits instead of holes, because it looks 100 times better. It looks very amaturish to use holes. Second, use the two prong lacing needle. (hint: polish the needle and the fid). When using the prong lacing needle, pre-punch the holes in the lace with a scratch awl. you'll be amazed at how much stronger the lace is and how long it lasts without breaking. Wax your lace with beeswax. Use the fid to open the slits a bit to get the needle through. Leather tends to close naturally when you spread it apart. If you punch holes, they won't close because the material is no longer there to close. Same thing when saddle stitching, using the stitching awl, the holes almost disappear when you stitch, and same goes for using slits for lace.

Best explination I found to lace was in the book from tandy shown below. And it's only 3 bucks (US) if you're a wholesale member.

[UKRay]

Thanks again for the help guys, although it seems like I'm getting some conflicting advice here - but unless I'm mistaken, holes versus slits may be something of a personal decision.

Marlon, I think I agree with the whole look thing but does anyone think it might be easier to learn to lace using holes - I can maybe progress to slits later?

I have two sorts of lacing needle - one sort is the hook and eye lacing needle from Tandy and the other is a Perma-Lok tubular brass needle which is what I think 8thsinner is suggesting I use . I have been using the hook and eye sort with my slits. This would appear to be wrong and I have to say, I struggle to keep the thong in the needle for long - does two hooks (prongs) improve the situation appreciably?

One more question has occured to me whilst I'm writing this - how far from the edge of the leather should I be putting my slits/holes and how far apart should they be. My lacing currently looks very 'sparse' almost as though I have used lace that is too thin - I have simply used standard width Tandy lace and the spacing that the slit cutter gives me. Has anyone got any words of wisdom here? Is there some kind of magic formulae for this?

Fid - No fid? Metal - wood? Anyone else got any suggestions?

[pete]

in a nutshell- if you are using 1/8th lacing, poke your slits/holes 1/8th apart, 1/8th away from the edge. This will give you a professional look.

pete

[Rawhide]

Marlon, I think I agree with the whole look thing but does anyone think it might be easier to learn to lace using holes - I can maybe progress to slits later?

I agree with this. It may be easier to learn this way.

I have two sorts of lacing needle - one sort is the hook and eye lacing needle from Tandy and the other is a Perma-Lok tubular brass needle which is what I think 8thsinner is suggesting I use . I have been using the hook and eye sort with my slits. This would appear to be wrong and I have to say, I struggle to keep the thong in the needle for long - does two hooks (prongs) improve the situation appreciably?

The needles I am speaking of have two plies with one ply having two small prongs on it. It is similar to the hook and eye needle

One more question has occured to me whilst I'm writing this - how far from the edge of the leather should I be putting my slits/holes and how far apart should they be. My lacing currently looks very 'sparse' almost as though I have used lace that is too thin - I have simply used standard width Tandy lace and the spacing that the slit cutter gives me. Has anyone got any words of wisdom here? Is there some kind of magic formulae for this?

General rule of thumb is thickness of stackup of material = distance from edge for slits/holes. As far as lace spacing goes, I prefer no spaces between laces. This is accomplished only by punching each slit with nippers on a 7 stitch per inch spacing for 1/8" lace, or 8 stitch per inch for 3/32" lace. the photo below shows the 8 spi with 3/32" lace.

Fid - No fid? Metal - wood? Anyone else got any suggestions?

Fid-yes, metal/wood, doesn't matter I don't think, but you can probably make one from a screwdriver.

Marlon

[Johanna]

I use a thonging chisel to punch the holes. You put the last tine in the last hole you punched and everything stays even. I use a chisel one size smaller than the lace I plan to use. I like it to look tight- and I don't want to see any light through it. I personally can't stand two pronged needles- some people swear by them. I like the Life Eyes (tubular brass) and I sharpen them. The trick to lacing is never let go of your needle(s). You want to keep the lace from getting twisted. If you do get a twist, take the needle off and use a modeling tool or a fid to yank it out. Double up going around corners for an even look. Always start and finish in the back of a project, even though if you do it right, you will never be able to tell where you started and stopped. It is better to splice than it is to drag too much lace through the holes. Too many passes through the holes will make the lacing ragged on the edges. A good rule of thumb is to hold the spool and pull off enough lace equal to a little but longer than your arm. When you are finished, beat it down with a smooth cobblers hammer or the butt of your mallet on your stone.

Hope this helps a little,

Johanna

[UKRay]

More good, helpful advice - thank you kindly Pete, Marlon and Johanna. The trouble is each answer raises more questions so I hope you still have some patience left.

I definitely like the idea of starting at the back (or bottom I guess?) - every time I have started out there is an ugly tangled mess at the beginning as I try to stop the thong pulling through the hole by 'backstitching' or simply tying a knot - this can't be right, so how should I start out a run of lacing? Is there a 'best' way to do this?

I use a three pronged thonging chisel, Johanna, and I do put the prong in the last hole as you suggest but it gets very difficult going round corners. I have a single tine punch but no matter how careful I am, my spacing doesn't seem to match the fork. Is this just a lack of practice or is there a trick to getting this right?

Although I had looked a lot of thong laced work before starting this project I hadn't realised just how many variables there are. I simply put a line of lacing holes along the edge of my belt and got stuck in - I didn't realise that the holes/slots could have been angled, smaller than the lace, punched holes or whatever - I just assumed it was a straightforward process... I won't be doing that again any time soon...

This whole needle business is a bit of a bother to me too. I now have a two pronged needle, which as Marlon so rightly says, makes it easier to keep the thong where it belongs. The trick of punching the holes with a scratch awl works well too, so thanks for that one.

I have tried using the hollow needle and it works - up to a point. Which makes me think I'm still doing something wrong. To start with, it is much harder to push the hollow needle through the slits than the two pronged needle. Having said that, I noticed that you sharpen your needles, Johanna. Do you literally have at them with a file and take them to a point or is this a more subtle thing?

The other issue I have with the hollow needle is that the thonging does pull out of the hollow end very easily. I have twisted it round and round till my fingers are sore but can't seem to make a connection with the threaded bit... any thoughts? I wondered if it would work better if the thonging was wet but that doesn't seem to make any difference.

Splicing is another fun sounding exercise... do you literally skive the leather and then glue the thinned ends together? What glue works best?

[Rawhide]

More good, helpful advice - thank you kindly Pete, Marlon and Johanna. The trouble is each answer raises more questions so I hope you still have some patience left.

I definitely like the idea of starting at the back (or bottom I guess?) - every time I have started out there is an ugly tangled mess at the beginning as I try to stop the thong pulling through the hole by 'backstitching' or simply tying a knot - this can't be right, so how should I start out a run of lacing? Is there a 'best' way to do this?

I use a three pronged thonging chisel, Johanna, and I do put the prong in the last hole as you suggest but it gets very difficult going round corners. I have a single tine punch but no matter how careful I am, my spacing doesn't seem to match the fork. Is this just a lack of practice or is there a trick to getting this right?

Although I had looked a lot of thong laced work before starting this project I hadn't realised just how many variables there are. I simply put a line of lacing holes along the edge of my belt and got stuck in - I didn't realise that the holes/slots could have been angled, smaller than the lace, punched holes or whatever - I just assumed it was a straightforward process... I won't be doing that again any time soon...

This whole needle business is a bit of a bother to me too. I now have a two pronged needle, which as Marlon so rightly says, makes it easier to keep the thong where it belongs. The trick of punching the holes with a scratch awl works well too, so thanks for that one.

I have tried using the hollow needle and it works - up to a point. Which makes me think I'm still doing something wrong. To start with, it is much harder to push the hollow needle through the slits than the two pronged needle. Having said that, I noticed that you sharpen your needles, Johanna. Do you literally have at them with a file and take them to a point or is this a more subtle thing?

The other issue I have with the hollow needle is that the thonging does pull out of the hollow end very easily. I have twisted it round and round till my fingers are sore but can't seem to make a connection with the threaded bit... any thoughts? I wondered if it would work better if the thonging was wet but that doesn't seem to make any difference.

Splicing is another fun sounding exercise... do you literally skive the leather and then glue the thinned ends together? What glue works best?

Ray,

Lots of these questions are answered in that book I mentioned and it's kinda hard to explain them in words, but I'll try.

There is a method to ending a laced project back at the point you started, but it's definitely a watch learn and try process. ( may see if I can put a youtube video together to explain it)

For going around corners, the trick is to start there. Punch all your corner holes first and fill in between with the prong chisel.

Trick for using the hollow needle is to skive the end and taper it to a point and thread this into the needle until it stops, If it breaks on you during lacing, you'll need to burn it out. (Use pliers to hold it and heat the end until the lace comes out.)

The splicing you described is called wet splicing, and I don't like to do it. sometimes there's almost no choice. For glue, use either PVA or contact cement. The book explains wet splicing and dry splicing, which is what I use. There's no glue involved.

Hope this helps Ray.

Marlon

[TwinOaks]

Ray, I'd like to address the issue of the needle coming off the lace. If you're doing it right, it'll never happen. You shouldn't be pulling with the needle- it's only a hard straight tool to point the lace through tight spots like holes, and over/under patterns. If the needle and lace won't pass easily through the hole/slit, you need to wallow it out with the needle or back the needle out and use the fid.

[UKRay]

What would I do without you guys - now I understand why you need the fid... its to open the hole up to poke the needle through. Obvious to everyone in the world but me. I somehow thought I had to 'sew' with the thing and was tugging away like an idiot and breaking the lace every couple of minutes. Cheers, Mike!

I have ordered the book, Marlon. Hopefully it will get me on track quickly as I don't cope well with failure! LOL

[MADMAX22]

Well guess I can throw my experience out there as more of a beginner with alot less time under my belt (about 9months or so). When I first started lacing a project or two I punched holes and used the hollow needles. It worked ok but I had issues.

Since then I have swayed more to the split lock needles like Marlin uses because I find them easy to use, they are really cheap compared to the round hollow needles and I think IMO they tend to go thru the slits easier.

I have changed from punching holes to usiing slits for most of my projects. I think for somethings I will still punch holes but who knows, for now its the slits with a angle to them not straight up and down. Helps make the lace lay down nice and good.

Started hammering down the lace job as well as directed by everyone here and it vastly improves the look of the lacing.

Two grand words of wisdom that I have gotten here WAX your lace lol. That makes a world of difference. And as stated keep track of which way you pull it thru so you dont have to try and roll your lace over because you pulled it thru the wrong way.

Im still learning but am improving and must say this site is a great resource and if you can get ahold of it that book Marlin directed you too is great also.

[TwinOaks]

+1 to Johanna's remark about shorter lace. Not only does the edge get ratty, but repeated pulling of the lace through the 'holes' tends to kill the finish on the lace. You end up with lace that's nice and shiney at the beginning, and dull at the end. Also think about lacing something like a photo album, with a perimeter measurement of ~3 feet (or a meter for our non-US members). Calculate how much lace you'd need to wrap it with a round braid, and imagine pulling that much lace through every hole....twice. Now that you're wincing at the agony of the thought, would you like to have one of my cats?

[8thsinner]

Yes indeed.

Mexican round braid edge lacing is about 8-9 times length needed.

[Beaverslayer]

Well, this is a topic that has and will always have a lot of different opinions. I myself have over the years, pretty much tried them all and have found that, with a little bit of modification to the "Perma Loc" needle (that's the round one) they work far better than the ones Marlon has mentioned.

What I do, is take a file and round the end to a smooth point, taking away the flat tip they have when purchased. This way they will enter a hole, slit or between two laces. Personally, I will only use the round needles.

On the topic of round holes or slits. This all depends on the type of lacing you are doing. For wallets and belt edges, the slits are the best way to go, but if you are going to be lacing the edges of a bike seat, or a garment like I do, then the round holes are the way to go. Sorry Marlon, but I and I believe a whole lot of others would argue the fact that "Round holes look unprofessional". I'm pretty sure you will agree that the lacing I do on one of my vests, is very professional looking.

Depending on the width of lace I am going to use, I will punch my holes 1 size smaller than the lace width. This way, when I'm done the seam and rolled it with a roller, not pounded it with a mallet, the holes are not visible any longer.

I have never used any wax on my lace either. I will, as Johanna has mentioned, only lace with a piece of lace about an arms length, then splice as I go along. If I see the lace getting frayed or wearing faster than normal, I will splice it at that point. Splicing takes practice to master, but once you've got it, you will never be able to see where the splice is.

When I first started out in leather and took up the tedious task of lacing EVERYTHING I make together, (sewing machines scare me) I spent countless hours trying different things to learn how to start and finish the lace. I read all the books, studied all the pictures, got real confused a lot of times. So what I did was to take a bunch of pieces of poster board, punch holes in it, then practice with that. This way I could just rip the lace out of the poster board and start again if I made a mistake or wanted to try a different method. It really saved on lace to practice with.

If you go to the main page of Leatherworker.net, there are 2 tutorials I did on a vest and a hat, each shows how to start, splice and finish lace.

Also, one more point on the round hole over slits debate, round holes will not rip if you try to pull oversized lace through them, as a slit, can and will at times tear open, and then my friends you have a whole new adventure on your hands.

Hope this helps you out.

Ken

Edited December 2, 2008 by Beaverslayer

[UKRay]

Most helpful thanks, Ken. Your tutorials were especially useful and the tip about practicing on card makes good sense too.

The hole v slit debate is interesting for someone new to lacing. I was looking for some kind of indicator - in other words: slits are used for cases and holes are used for garments but it doesn't work like that does it? Ken obviously uses holes all the time for everything and by the sound of it Marlon always uses slits - is this all about ease of use or the way you were taught or what?

[8thsinner]

It can be that simple yes.

I don't often use slits these days for anything simply because I don't have the tools anymore. My tool kit right now fits into a very small box.

Most people will probably start learning using holes because that's what most of the books tell you to use on mexican style braiding, as far as I can remember one of stohlman's books shows slits for certain types of lacing.

I would suggest for now you stick with round holes because they are stronger. Once you are happy with the quality of using holes switch to slits. When you are happy with that compare the two methods using the experience of all your mistakes and either change the preference for different projects based on that experience or stick with the one you simply prefer.

[Rawhide]

... Sorry Marlon, but I and I believe a whole lot of others would argue the fact that "Round holes look unprofessional". I'm pretty sure you will agree that the lacing I do on one of my vests, is very professional looking.

No apologies necessary Ken. Just difference of opinion. My opinions are based on doing small projects like notebook covers and wallets and such. I've never made any garments or bike seats, so naturally I forgot about those situations where I think round holes would be almost a necessity. For instance, your vests, David's & Shirley's seats are fantastic and they all have holes for lacing.

However, If you use the round holes on a wallet, it looks like it came from a kit. Which is not to say that it's bad, it just looks like a kit.

Most helpful thanks, Ken. Your tutorials were especially useful and the tip about practicing on card makes good sense too.

The hole v slit debate is interesting for someone new to lacing. I was looking for some kind of indicator - in other words: slits are used for cases and holes are used for garments but it doesn't work like that does it? Ken obviously uses holes all the time for everything and by the sound of it Marlon always uses slits - is this all about ease of use or the way you were taught or what?

I started with using round holes and the two prong needle. I then switched to using the permalock needle somewhere along the line. I did like using it, but after a session with Peter Main, he explained why he uses the 2 prong needle and more importantly how. Holes are definiteley easier to use, but when I look at the work by Al Stohlman ( and I don't mean the stuff he did for tandy catalogs, etc.. but his personal items) They all have slits.

By the way, I do use holes for mexican braiding, but I hardly do that because of the time consumption.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Rawhide

[Beaverslayer]

Ken obviously uses holes all the time for everything and by the sound of it Marlon always uses slits - is this all about ease of use or the way you were taught or what?

As Marlon has said, the slits do look far better on a wallet and such. These days almost everything I make conforms more to the use of a round hole rather than the slit. If I were to be making a wallet or a belt, yes I would use a slit, as it conforms to this type of construction.

Also, as I cut all my own lace, usually from the same hide I am making something from, this in most cases gives me a lace that is in the 3-4 oz thickness of lace. This thick of lace is in no way going to be pulled through a slit with any ease, and will also be frayed and worn within minutes.

Marlon, I have always admired the lacing that you do on your projects, you can see the time and effort you put into them, just by looking at the lacing. I do agree with you on the round holes on a wallet style project looking very unprofessional, and like a Tandy kit.

Ray, depending on the type of project you are wanting to lace, I would say that this is the biggest factor to determine the type of lace and holes you are going to use. If you are using the pre-cut lace from Tandy, that is quite thin, then go with the slits. As mentioned previously, the slit placement from the edge of the leather is determined by the width of the lace. And as Marlon has said he does not like the slits to have any space between them. You accomplish this by using the angled prong tool, and having your slits punched on an angle rather than parallel to the edge.

Ken

[UKRay]

If this thread has taught me anything, it is that discussion makes things so much clearer. I am now resolved to take my bits of cardboard with holes in 'em and sit quiet in a corner for a few months until I have something sensible to add to this conversation. (I wish!) Thanks to all of you for the great advice. I have a pile of new books to read, a heap of lace to cut and a lot of cussin' and spittin' to do so I'll go now... ...see you in the spring! <grin!>

[8thsinner]

If having something to contribute means so much to you in the short term, why not give us a review of all the books you now have, or even a list and a star rating.

Everyone almost knows about stohlman, grant etc, but there are plenty of others recommended to me that I had not heard of before, I am sure you can add to that list.