Adler 467 For Venator

[venator]

In defense of the first fellow to work on my machine (Derrick at Massey's sewing) he turned it back over to me after a few hours and told me he couldn't fix it, he also didn't charge me so I'm fine with that. While I wasn't thrilled he couldn't fix it I'm fine with a man who knows his limits and didn't charge me to discover them.

Central Sewing on the other hand told me to put $500 down so they could diagnose my machine and see if they could fix it or not. Either way i lose the $500 and perhaps get a machine back that still doesn't work. I was less than thrilled with them.

[gottaknow]

I'm getting happier with the sewing, working on tracking down the lack of oil flow....stay tuned.

Regards, Eric

[venator]

Oh I'm tuned. . .

[gottaknow]

I spent a good amount of time understanding the oil system on this machine. It uses a combination of the following:

1. Oil reservoir splash- this is a closed compartment with a supply of oil. The bottom shaft as it rotates throws or "splashes" oil into strategic locations that contains wicks, transporting the oil to key locations. This is the ideal system for any sewing machine because it's not dependent on a pump. It provides the most complete and dependable system in my opinion. Union Special Corp. mastered the design of this in many of their chainstitch machines as well as their workhorse overlock machines. Machines with reliable lubrication live a long life. They do require mineral oil with an anti-foaming agent as the splash system is quite violent. Without the anti-foaming agent, you have a bunch of bubbles that don't flow very well. Ironic that many oil pumps depend on oil flowing through them to keep them lubricated and funtioning. An oil pump that runs dry will eventually fail.

2. Oil pump- oil pumps come in many forms. I know there is an oil pump in the 467. I believe that it's fed via a tube in the splash reservoir. That pump pushes the oil to a series of small tubes, some with wicks, some without. This oil pump supplies oil to the top shaft including the needle bar, presser bar, and all the associated moving parts. Very critical.

3. Gravity- this is common on older machines with an oil reservoir in the top part of the machine. Singer perfected this system in their original 111 series. It worked good for the top shaft, and the bottom shaft depended on oil holes that had to be manually oiled.

The 467 has a sight glass on the front of the machine that indicates oil flowing to the top shaft and it's components. Many manufacturers use a sight glass so that you can make sure your top shaft is being lubricated. I stated earlier in this thread that the top shaft of this machine was bone dry. It's been dry for a very long time. I also posted a picture of a crank shaft that had some punch marks on it. I now believe the top shaft on this machine froze up at some point in its history and someone got it turning again by applying some local oil and hitting the top of the crank. The needle bar was jumping sideways when I first started looking at the timing. I hand oiled the crank and readjusted it's position. The movement is minimal now and I was able to get the machine sewing in pretty short order. The original hook was replaced at some point, probably from lack of oil. The generic hook had some issues, but I resolved that as I went over earlier in the thread.

There are some broken components in the oil system. The sight glass has an entire corner missing. It just happens to be where the tube from the oil pump enters that verifies oil flow to the top shaft. It was likely broken by a misplaced screwdriver. It's tucked a bit out of sight where it would be easy to damage.

I don't know at this point if the oil pump works. There are other indication that it doesn't. There's also a leaky seal on the right side of the bottom shaft where it goes through the main oil reservoir. This has caused the timing belt to soaked in oil. Rubber timing belts don't like oil. There's enough oil on this belt and the splines really aren't that deep (compared to say, a Singer 211). It's conceivable that the shaft timing could jump. I put some pressure on it, but it stayed in place. I've got pictures to show all the above, but it's late and I'll edit and add them to the thread this weekend. I did sew some nice heavy nylon webbing with no issues.

Regards, Eric

[Uwe]

Thanks for the details on the lubrication issue. I'm on vacation, so I spent way too much time reading up on the lubrication system of the 467. The service manual for the Adler 467 (available in English or German) explains how the oil lubrication is supposed to work/flow on pages 12/13. It sounds as if that pump inside the machine is there to suck the excess oil from the head back to the main sump and to the hook case. Apparently the oil is delivered to the head by way of spiral grooves on a "pump" shaft and a brass tube. The oil should be dripping from the brass tube (3) in the head when the machine is operating. The little viewing window (K) should show oil "bubbles" during operation. Its seems if the head is bone dry, there is either no oil dripping from the brass tube, or the oil is not hitting the wick when it's dripping from the brass tube. The manual talks about bending the brass tube "just so" to make it drip onto the wick and into the hole below in the return tube. I've not seen the 467 in person and was wondering if you mind confirming if that brass tube is indeed visible and dripping oil as indicated in the attached diagram from the manual. The diagram has two version of the head dripping chamber. Could you let us know which one is on Venator's machine?

[Constabulary]

My 2 large singer "oil pumps" never fail!

But my machines do not run in a factory environment. Anyway - I´d say manual oiling from time to time are not a bad idea even when you have an oil pump on your machines.

Question is do these oil pumps work at slow speed at all? Meaning are they probably useless when you are working with leather / sewing at very slow speed? If this is the case you should consider manual oiling in general.

[shoepatcher]

The Adler 467 and 767 only really pump oil if the machine is run over 2500 rpm so manually oiling the machines is good if you are sewing at slow speeds. The new 867 machines oiling system will pump ail at any speed. A much better system.

glenn

[gottaknow]

The problem with manually oiling the top shaft of the 467 is there's no access without removing the top and end cover. I will likely drill some strategic holes or install a top reservoir with some routing of wick tubes much like the old Singer 111's. Their is some damage due to lack of oil on this machine. I'm convinced now that an oil without an anti corrosion element was used for a long time.

Regards, Eric

[TwinOaks]

This topic has so much incredibly detailed and valuable info in it that it has been "pinned". Access to the topic won't change (at least not yet), but it will likely be at the top of the 'leather sewing machines' sub-forum.

Thank you Eric, for sharing your knowledge and skill with us.

[gottaknow]

Ok, here's the pics that go with the earlier description of the oil issues. Oil to an industrial machine is like blood in our bodies. I've seen upholstery shops kill a new machine in very short order due to lack of oil.

In the factory, we pay very close attention to oil. Not only the fill levels, but making sure the pumps are working. A machine sewing just half a day at high speed will seize. On the machines that require a higher rpm, the operator have to wind a few bobbins a day at high speed, rather than when they're sewing. The Juki 5410's will seize in less than a day if the top shaft is dry and the operator is sewing full speed. Machines that are purchased and used for leather, seldom see much speed. It's important to understand the oiling system. It's the first thing I do when I purchase a new machine.

Anyway, the pics are attached below for the 467. It's easy to see the oil issues throughout the machine. I really think the wrong oil was used in this machine for a long time. There shouldn't be that much corrosion in a closed sump. As I stated earlier, any machine that uses a closed splash sump, needs to have oil with an anti-foaming agent. If the oil foams, it heats up and the chemical properties begin to change. At that point, it's not oil and leaves the type of residue I've seen through out this machine.

When I have time to come up with a satisfactory fix, I'll document what I decided to do. At this point, I still think this machine will be useable, but with some added maintenance items to pay attention to. I'm very conservative with the use of solvent to clean newer machines that have sealed bearings. You can't replace the grease. As for the leaky lower shaft seals, unless the shafts are removed and the seals replaced, they will keep leaking. The timing belt will need to be kept somewhat clean to extend it's life. As a footnote, the timing belt on this machine is kinda whimpy. The rest of the machine is a rock.

Regards, Eric

[TinkerTailor]

I thought wrong oil might be part of it. Sturmey-archer bicycle hubs are oil bath and over half the probs I see are due to wrong oil gumming up the works. Ironically the problem is someone put in sewing machine oil....I use ATF because it has detergents and antifoam agents and oes not varnish up. I have often wondered if ATF would also work in sewing machines. It's close to the same viscosity and rpm ranges in an auto trans. It's also designed to not change properties with heat.

[Uwe]

A disconnected oil line will create some havoc regardless of the oil used, I imagine.

It would be super useful to get a list of a few "good" oils, that are still commercially available (ideally on Amazon or my local AutoZone) identified by brand and item name/number. Also, a list of (corrosive?) oils to positively avoid may be equally useful. Or will this set off a near-religious war of the oils? I've come across many references to "Lily White" oil and even ordered some from ZipperStop for my SunStar sump machine. But I've realized the term simply refers to the clear color and says very little about the chemical formulation. Is there an original "Lily White" oil by some manufacturer? Automatic transmission fluid (ATF) may be a great choice but I can't get over having everything in sight stained red. I've read blogs recommend fully synthetic 0W20 oil, but the one I bought to try looked like maple syrup in coloring. I use rather expensive Tri-Flow to manually oil my machines - it was recommended by my local sewing store. Another youtube sewing tech highly recommended Marvel Mystery oil, saying it was developed for sewing machines originally but later marketed for automotive use to actually make money. It's very confusing, what with additives, detergents, anti-foaming agents, synthetic or not. It seems we should have a sticky post with a list of definitive sewing machine oil recommendations.

[gottaknow]

This is the oil I use in all my machines. (see attached pdf) We have to use oil that we can clean out of fabrics with dry cleaning spot remover. This is really a great oil. Juki approves of its use in all their new machines and it doesn't void the warranty. I don't experiment with oils, it's too important. I'll actually use the same oil to help clean this 467 and stop the corrosion.

Regards, Eric

4991.pdf

[TinkerTailor]

tri-flow is much more affordable in gallon jugs. The bike shop can order them for you if you use it regularly. Don't get me wrong, its not wd40 on sale cheap. In canada its $9.50 for a 2 oz bottle and $190/gallon. That's $1.40/oz...still expensive but much better.

[TinkerTailor]

This is the oil I use in all my machines. (see attached pdf) We have to use oil that we can clean out of fabrics with dry cleaning spot remover. This is really a great oil. Juki approves of its use in all their new machines and it doesn't void the warranty. I don't experiment with oils, it's too important. I'll actually use the same oil to help clean this 467 and stop the corrosion.

Regards, Eric

Interesting that you saw rust and evidence of foaming in the 476 and your lily white oils msds sheet says water in the oil could cause frothing.........just an observation...There shouldn't be water in there anyways....

[gottaknow]

Tinker, re-read the msds, section 4. It states that adding water can cause foaming if the oil is burning, as any oil will do. That refers to trying to extinguish it with water. The oil itself is not formulated with any water.

Regards, Eric

Edited May 10, 2015 by gottaknow

[Uwe]

I think my $25/gal. ZipperStop oil is the same as the AlbaChem Lily White, but I'm not positive yet. They sell the little zoom-spout bottle with definitely is identical, because it says AlbaChem right on the bottle. The Gallon size bottle get new reseller labels. There's apparently a bit of leeway in oil viscosity that will work in a machine. AlbaChem Lily White has a ISO viscosity of 22 Pfaff 335 manual specifies viscosity of 22 Durkopp Adler manuals specify viscosity of 10 Juki Defrix No. 1 has viscosity of 7.4 So the AlbaChem Lily White oil is a perfect match for my Pfaff, and apparently close enough for other manufacturers. Perhaps the lack of long term residue or nasty corrosive effects are equally if not more important than precise viscosity. I still have almost a gallon left, which seems like a lifetime supply in manual drip oiling - yay!

Edited May 10, 2015 by Uwe

[TinkerTailor]

Tinker, re-read the msds, section 4. It states that adding water can cause foaming if the oil is burning, as any oil will do. That refers to trying to extinguish it with water. The oil itself is not formulated with any water.

Regards, Eric

I get that the oil is not formulated with water, that would be bad. At least there was none in the sealed bottle that came from the factory. The bottle used to fill this machine previously would be a different story. When i read the msds, i thought conditions of flamability meant factors which could increase flamability, like foaming from water in the mix. Water in engine oil makes it frothy. I may be wrong but i think the frothing in diesel when you fill a tank makes it more flamable due to available oxygen. I assumed that section was telling me what conditions to avoid to prevent fire. Right after is the section on recommended fire fighting methods. Its a moot point really, I just chuckled to myself when i read that line, after your diagnosis of the machine. May have only been funny to me. It happens.

Edited May 10, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[Constabulary]

This "oil pump thing" is really something one should know of and keep in mind when hunting for a new / used sewing machine!!!

As Uwe said "the right oil topic" will probably cause some fighting. This is probably the same as "the correct olive drab paint" when you are involved in military vehicles. Others go crazy when it comes to automotive motor oils... WTF

Anyway - would be nice to read other oil opinions.

My all time favorite oil for all oiling purposes is the full synthetic S-761 weapons oil. S-761 is the NATO code not the product name. It is well penetrating has good cleaning effect and is well preserving too.

I have used this stuff for years when I was in the Army. Since then I always have a few liters on my shelf. I´m not a technician but my simple mind makes me think what keeps the heavy machine guns firing can´t be bad for my vintage sewing machines. Maybe a dumb reason but this stuff just works very well.

http://www.etsint.de/en/produkte/cleaning/military/weaponoil-967

Edited May 10, 2015 by Constabulary

[gottaknow]

Here's one more picture of the oil return intake. I removed the plastic bottle so you can see the sludge on the intake. There hasn't been any oil movement through this portion for a long time. It went unnoticed since there wasn't any oil getting to the top shaft to be returned to the sump anyway. I like Tinkers theory that perhaps water was introduced via a contaminated container, and it likely went on for a while. Only other way I've seen this happen is through condensation inside the upper arm where it could have drained back to the sump. I don't think that was the case though, since the inside of the upper arm is fairly clean.

Regards, Eric

[Uwe]

Sometimes machines simply get left out in the rain at some point during their storied life. Nothing like a quick downpour during a yard sale or a leaky roof in a storage unit to get water into places where it shouldn't be. I was at an estate sale recently looking at a seemingly nice Pfaff flatbed machine. When I lifted the presser foot there was a crusty, rusted outline of the foot on the denim fabric. The fabric along with the rest of the machine had gotten quite wet at some point. I took that as a bad sign and moved on.

[brmax]

WOW! them pics say a lot to me

1 .........cannot write that.........

2 Bothers me one hell of a lot it wasn't gave to someone instead of sold

3 ..........cannot write that either ..........................

Eric Thanks for helping out, 3 cheers !!!

[gottaknow]

WOW! them pics say a lot to me

1 .........cannot write that.........

2 Bothers me one hell of a lot it wasn't gave to someone instead of sold

3 ..........cannot write that either ..........................

Eric Thanks for helping out, 3 cheers !!!

Heh..

Rather than place blame, I choose uneducated oversight. I see it a lot. I guess that's why I enjoy sharing information so much. Lord knows I won't be around forever, so pay it forward. I have been very fortunate to have had the experience and training I recieved. I've made my share of mistakes, it's part of the process. I had a Union Special 63900KD (actually I had 30 of them). It's a needle feed lockstitch with a gear type oil pump for the top shaft. The tended to lose their prime. The mechanic I was working for at the time told me to keep an eye on that particular machine, check the sight glass 4 times a day. The operator was setting front zippers and sewed wide open at 4000 spm. I was across the factory and began hearing a high pitched whine. As I was turning around, there was a loud bang. The top shaft froze up so tight, that it actually tipped the machine over frontwards. We had to part out the machine and I learned a valuable lesson.

Regards, Eric

[SantaFeMarie]

2 Bothers me one hell of a lot it wasn't gave to someone instead of sold

Back when all this started the owner of the machine said it worked fine when he got it.

I think it is unreasonable to buy a used machine in order to save money and then assume it is in like new condition.

[TinkerTailor]

If that is a bottom feed sump, if there is water in it it would be sucked up to the pump first as oil floats on water. I wonder if the previous seller topped it up with oil on top of the water and ran it with water lube for a while. Because there was at least water up there, at slow speeds the machine has been able to work for a while.