Adler 467 For Venator

[gottaknow]

If that is a bottom feed sump, if there is water in it it would be sucked up to the pump first as oil floats on water. I wonder if the previous seller topped it up with oil on top of the water and ran it with water lube for a while. Because there was at least water up there, at slow speeds the machine has been able to work for a while.

It's very plausible that water was in the oil for quite some time. How it got in there, I have no idea. I believe the screw pump for the top shaft is probably corroded and blocked. I'm going to drain the sump this week and fill it with clean oil. I'll save the old oil in a jar and let it settle out. Nears as I can tell, the intake is below the normal oil level, but closer to the top then the bottom. Because a screw type pump will always be in motion, it's possible if I can get to it with a .010 guitar string I can unclog it. I have 4 guitars and I use the old strings for lots of things. I won't spend a lot time on that, more than likely I'll develope a new manual oiling system for the top shaft. I have a short week coming up in my factory, I'll be flying to our two plants in Seattle to address some machine issues.

Regards, Eric

Edited May 11, 2015 by gottaknow

[venator]

Back when all this started the owner of the machine said it worked fine when he got it.

I think it is unreasonable to buy a used machine in order to save money and then assume it is in like new condition.

I agree with you, in purchasing a used machine I did not expect to receive a new machine. However the machine was not only sold as used but advertised as "reconditioned", in my mind this was not a reconditioned machine.

When I purchase something as reconditioned I am under the impression that it has been cleaned effectively (clearly this has not due to the corrosion etc) that all parts of it work properly including such items as the lubrication system (clearly not the case) that all parts are correct for the machine (clearly not since at least one part required mechanical modification such as grinding).

While the machine did work when we received it we put less than 5 hours of very very light use on it before we started to have problems, it received less use than I would expect one of Eric's machines to receive in less than 30 minutes of run time before it started to act up.

While I would have no problem if a part had broken, it is used after all and such things cannot be predicted, I have issue with a machine that falls so badly out of alignment that it requires quite a few hours of labour from a skilled mechanic to get it working again. I also take issue with a machine being sold as reconditioned that does not have a functioning lubrication system, or the correct parts.

If I was paying for these repairs I'm sure it would cost me less to simply sell the machine as scrap and purchase a brand new machine in it's place and that is what I find totally unacceptable about the entire situation.

Had I purchased from an individual I would simply say "Caveat emptor" and move on but since this is supposedly a respected retailer that specializes in such things I feel there is a higher standard expected, one they clearly have not met.

[gottaknow]

Ok, got my traveling out of the way for now, so spending time with the oil system for the top end. So far, I've determined the pump on the bottom shaft that used to supply oil to the top end is corroded and will be of no use. I plugged it with a piece of brazing rod and tucked it out of the way of in the top arm.

I have many parts machines in which to harvest oil components from. Wicks, tubes, reservoirs, etc. I have taken a lot of pictures today, and I'll edit and upload them as time permits. I'm thinking the new oil system will be comprised of some oil holes drilled in the top cover, and perhaps a reservoir with a wick system for other components. If this machine has any kind of future, the top shaft and all of it's components need a supply of oil.

I love being in my shop at work when nobody is here. This place is using pretty noisy. Rather than work, this is relaxing for me, so don't anyone feel sorry for me...my wife's working all day as it is. I do love what I do.

Regards, Eric

[Constabulary]

I´d also love being in your shop when nobody is there. I´m sure I will discoverer some interesting things.

[gottaknow]

Ok, so as I covered before, there is a lot of corrosion in the main oil sump. I still don't know how it got there. What I do know, is the majority of the corrosion is within the areas exposed to the oil. The sump itself is covered. Most of the time, you can scrape the rust off. In this machine, the corrosion is of the pitting variety. It's eaten into the metal. The exception to that is the bronze bushings, they of course contain no iron.

I drained the oil out of the machine into a glass jar. It was obvious right away that there was water in the sump. Needless to say, the screw type oil pump is not working. The pictures below will show why the pump failed. Since the broken sight glass is part of the oil system, it's done for as well. Today my goal was to see the extent of the damage, test the pump,(failed) and proceed with a new oil system for the top shaft. The pictures below pretty much tell the story. Aside from adding water with the oil, the only other possibility is the vent tube that angles down into the sump. It's about a 5/16" metal tube. The vent tube isn't unique to enclosed oil systems. This one is a very bad design. The entry port is on the back edge of the casting.

If a cleaner was used even just a few times on the stand or machine, it would run right down into the sump. A chemical along with the water would explain the high level of corrosion and unusual pitting. The pitting is also on the aluminum, the cast iron, and the hardened steel. I wish I had the history of this machine. A better design would have the vent entry port pointed down under the head.

Regards, Eric

[Uwe]

I look forward to seeing what alternate system you come up with for lubricating this machine. I wonder if the original system was really suitable for sewing really slow, at about 1/10th the rated speed. Perhaps the lubrication system works okay for sewing leather at medium high speed like in those youtube videos where they sew sofa covers or similar things and only slow down at the seams. My leather sewing speed is 1-3 stitches per second at most, and I somewhat doubt that the spiral screw channel oil delivery system would work well at that speed even if it were working perfectly, without any corrosion.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Uwe

[gottaknow]

I look forward to seeing what alternate system you come up with for lubricating this machine. I wonder if the original system was really suitable for sewing really slow, at about 1/10th the rated speed. Perhaps the lubrication system works okay for sewing leather at medium high speed like in those youtube videos where they sew sofa covers or similar things and only slow down at the seams. My leather sewing speed is 1-3 stitches per second at most, and I somewhat doubt that the spiral screw channel oil delivery system would work well at that speed even if it were working perfectly, without any corrosion.

It's hard to say Uwe. I've seen it go both ways. It all depends on whether or not the pump loses it's prime after sitting a while. I wish there wasn't any corrosion so I could actually test its output. I do think that any machine with a pump for the top shaft should be run at high speed every so often, like winding a bobbin. It's easy on most machines to simply remove the end cover and check for signs of oil. I would encourage everyone that does hobby sewing with an industrial machine to check this. You should be able to pinch a wick and get oily fingers. If not, I would sure start oiling by hand every place you see a wick and then some. I would venture to say, over a 35 year career that every machine I've seen ruined started with an oil issue. We wouldn't dream of driving our cars without oil.

Regards, Eric

[LumpenDoodle2]

Thanks for the info on this thread, you really know what are doing, and you obviously care about your work. Sadly, not everyone does.

I was fortunate to pick up a Consew 210 for £30, and getting the timing, etc right, and knowing what parts to replace, was a very steep learning curve for me. It now runs well, and will only be replaced when I'm in a position to afford a decent walking foot machine.

I look forward to the next instalment.

[gottaknow]

So today, I mapped out the required locations for oil on the top shaft, and the end of the head where the needle bar resides. I removed most of the wicks that were fed from the failed shaft pump. Because the end of the head was oiled from those wicks, gravity will carry oil back to them.

I spent some time thinking about the best way to oil this part of the machine. I kept coming back to something Singer stood by going way back. If you manually oil the critical parts each day you use the machine, there's nothing to fail. It also ensures that if a long time goes between use, gravity won't drain everything and there's no pump to fail or under perform at slow speed. The top cover of this machine lends itself to some strategic small oil holes, painted red. That was Singers universal language for "oil here". It also gives the next owner the ability to oil the machine without an explanation.

The return oil wicks will still take care of any over-oiling issues. Sometimes the simplest ways are the best. No covers will have to be removed since the end of the machine will be fed from the top. I also figured out today that the break in the top oiling system, (sight glass area) came before the contamination of the lower oil sump. There is no rust on that end of the machine. If there were, this machine may be a total loss, depending on the extent of the pitting.

What's left is drilling and painting the new holes, flushing the lower sump one more time, and more test sewing to make sure things are good still. Oh, I still have to make a new tension unit for the bobbin winder. The bad news is the lower shaft seals will continue to leak and the timing belt worries me because of the oil. It will be up to the owner to try and keep it wiped clean.

It would be interesting to price out all the new components to rebuild the oil system the way it once was. I have done that on certain specialty machines, but your average industrial isn't worth the expense or labor. To get this machine back to original would require removing most of the larger shafts. With the pitting, some would have to be replaced. Of course it would be fun, but not cost effective.

Regards, Eric

[Constabulary]

oh man - when I see all this it once again confirms my opinion that older machines are often enough the better choice - at least for my purposes.

@Venator

have you ever contacted Nick-O-Sew to tell them what is going on with the machine you bought from them?