Adler 267 Timing Problem?

[276ccm]

Hi all! :-)

Now I´m a little desperate, as I have two motorcycle shows coming up and I´m trying to work day and night to finish some custom seats.. well, I´ll try to explain:

A few weeks ago bought a mint condition (as far as I could see) Adler 267 and I replaced the motor to a good servo motor. It was sewing perfectly until today.. I was trying out two different sizes of thread to decide which one to use, and suddenly something happened and the thread got "stuck" in the bobbin somewhere.. I had to lirk it out and it was a little mess down there, but I think I got all the thread out.

As I was threading the machine again, and was ready to sew, it looks like the machine now has a timing problem. It looks like the hook won't catch the thread.

I took a "lot" of video and some pictures to try to document whats happening when I try to sew.

Please watch the video, and if any of you experts can see something that is obviously wrong.. and if you have some tips of what to do, I would be really happy as I really need to finish some of the seats for the shows.

The youtube video of the bobbin/hook from different views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bwDaEHlIMQ

Do you think this is something I can fix my self, or do I need a professional technician? Or do you see if anything is missing or broken?

I would be really really really happy if anyone could take the time to help me sort this out! :-)

Thanks a lot in advance! :-)

Marius

[LumpenDoodle2]

I may be wrong, but it looks as if your timing might have slipped a little bit. Your needle seems to be starting its upward journey before the hook can get to it.

Have you tried it with thinner thread, just to see if it behaves the same?

If the bobbin timing is out, it's just the case of loosening the screws holding the bobbin case onto the shaft, and advancing the timing slightly. Another thing to check, is the gap between the needle flat bit at the eye, and the hook. If it's too big, the hook can't catch the thread, too small and the needle catches on the hook.

[276ccm]

Thanks a lot for reply! :-)

Do you mean this screw? (See picture) and probably another one under the "plate" (Now I can't remember any technical words) :-)

Yes I tried with a more thin thread too, but the same problem. I tried with the same thread as I have always been sewing with, a thicker one and a thinner one. I didn't try to change the needle tho, but used the same size as I have been using for these threads, but same behaviour with any thread..

When the thread got stuck, it stopped the motor, so I had to turn it off, so I guess it might got a litte pressure when it happened..

Regards Marius

[LumpenDoodle2]

Unfortunately, I don't have experience of horizontal bobbin thingies, I've only ever jammed vertical bobbin machines.

The timing doesn't have to be knocked out by much to ruin your day, and hopefully someone with more experience than me will be able to help more.

[Constabulary]

Usually the the needlebar should rise 2.5mm from BDC and at this point the hook tip should meet the needle scarf 1.6mm above the needle eye in the center of the needle. Thats basically the same at all machines of this type. It works for the Singer 111, Dürkopp 239 / 241, Paff 145 and I´m sure it works for your Adler as well.

But maybe you just hit a hard spot and you just have to lower the needle bar a little bit.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Constabulary

[Uwe]

Nice little video! Your timing is off by more than just a little bit. The hook tip is nowhere near the needle when it needs to be - it's way late. Are you sure your safety clutch is engaged? It's hard for the timing to "jump" if you have gear driven hooks. It's fairly easy for the safety clutch to pop loose if you hit something hard or things get bound up due to thread knots.

Page 7 in the service manual goes through the steps to set proper hook-to-needle timing. The first thing it tells you is to make sure your safety clutch is engaged. Page 13 talks about how to check and re-set the safety clutch. With a little luck, all you need to do is re-set the safety clutch again and you're back in business.

Full DA 267 service manual can be viewed and downloaded here: http://www.manualslib.com/manual/461620/Duerkopp-Adler-267.html

Edited September 11, 2015 by Uwe

[276ccm]

Thanks a lot for your reply guys! I really appreciate it! :-)

I wasn't even aware what a safety clutch was, or that I had one, but now I do and if I understand correctly I will go this afternoon to see if it´s in place..

In the manual it says: "Hold shaft G and turn the hand wheel till clutch engages"

Maybe a silly question, but does it basically means to hold the shaft with my hand and turn the hand wheel and it will "popp" in place?

I think my english is fairly good, but some times I´m not so familiar with all the technical terms, so I might as some silly questions to be sure I dont do anything wrong :-)

Thanks again for your support! :-)

[Uwe]

Yup that's what it sounds like to me. The english in the manual is a bit rough in spots. (The German language manual for the Adler 267 isn't all that much better and even gets the image numbers wrong.)

Image 15 in the back of the manual shows the clutch with the two screws "d" to adjust clutch release torque and the hole "n" (the manual calls this "n/15" in the text on page 13.) You use this hole "n" to check if the clutch is engaged or not. If it is engaged, meaning the two clutch disks are aligned, the hole labeled "n" should line up with a hole in the back disk of the clutch. You should be able to stick a little pin or hex wrench all the way through the clutch when the holes are aligned. Take the pin out again after you check!

Image 21 in the back of the manual shows the shaft labelled "G". This shaft connects the clutch to the hook gear. If the clutch is disengaged, it should be fairly easy to hold the shaft "G" with your left hand fingers and turn the handwheel towards you until the spring-loaded balls inside the clutch pop back into their little dimples/holes to engage the clutch again. Once the clutch is engaged, It'll take a good amount of torque to make the clutch disengage again - I'm guessing you can't hold the shaft strong enough with just your fingers to make the clutch disengage.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Uwe

[276ccm]

Ah, now I slowly start to understand hehe Thanks a lot for a very good and clear explanation! :-)

I went to the "office" and tried to hold the shaft tight with my hand, but I didn't manage to pop it into place.. but I didn't quite understand the safety clutch before now, as I was looking at both the german and the english manual and the number of the picture is different.. anyway, I think I understand now and will go tomorrow morning to check if the clutch is engaged..

If not I´ll loosen the screws for the clutch and align the clutch plates and tighten as the manual says, and hope it´s all what it takes, but I´m a little bit scared, as I took a new video today and picture, that shows more clear that the timing is really far off as you mentioned..

The picture below shows how far the tip of the hook is the needle.. I guess the hook should be in the middl of the needle when it´s in this position..

Thanks again, I really appreciate it! :-)

[276ccm]

Hi again.. :-) I couldn't wait and went to the office to check, but it doesn't look good. It looks like the clutch is even. I took out both the screws on the clutch and it looks like I can put a pin in the hole all the way. It doesn't go trough, but as far as I can get. The video shows what I tried. I also tried to hold the shaft, but nothing popped in place and I could hold it still..

The video: http://youtu.be/_A8BoGDJYEo

What do you think?

Also some pictures

[Uwe]

I still think the safety clutch may be involved. Perhaps the safety clutch does not move easily like it should after the machines sitting for a long time.

I checked the safety clutch operation on my Chandler/Adler 67. The safety clutch design on the 67 is different from that on the 267, but the concept is the same.

Because I'm in major procrastination mode, I just finished making a little video that shows how my safety clutch works and how to verify hook timing on my machine:

You should be able to disengage and re-engage the clutch similar to what I did. Hold the hook drive shaft carefully with a wrench (don't be scratching up that pristine piece of machinery!) and turn the hand wheel. It's didn't take all that much force on mine to pop the little ball in and out of its seat. The safety clutch is supposed to let go before something gets bent or damaged.

If you can't move the safety clutch at all, it may have slipped and/or bound up for some reason.

If the safety clutch is indeed engaged and working properly then you need to go through the hook timing procedure. That still wouldn't explain how you can slip/jump the timing this bad while sewing - the only way to do that is if the hook drive gears skipped a few teeth while sewing and that seems very unlikely.

[276ccm]

Thanks a lot Uwe! I truly appreciate your help! I watched your video and I will go to the office the first thing in the morning.. Now I have to pay attention to my girlfriend and the two year anniversary dinner! :-)

I can't wait to try again :-)

[276ccm]

There is absolute no way I can pop that clutch either in or out of place.. I loosened the two clutch screws, hold the shaft as tight as I could with a tool, and turned the hand wheel, but no way..

It looks like the clutch is in place tho (see picture) bit something is obviously wrong as I can't pop it out of place either.

Can there be a solution to take off this belt and turn it a few "teets" and put it back on? I think I would have heard it if the belt was jumping some teeth when it happened, but now I'm not sure, or maybe desperate hehe

Or can it be any chance this screw is out of position? It feels tight tho, but I won't touch it yet.. Just trying to think what could have happened.

Any thoughts on this last "update"?

Regards a frustrated man :-)

[Uwe]

I found a nice Adler 267 Parts manual for your machine that shows how the safety clutch pieces fit together in great detail. So the main two clutch parts are the toothed outer "cup" (267150100) and the solid cylindrical part (0268150260) that fits inside the cup and is supposed to be able to rotate freely inside that cup. The only intended connections between the two are the little spring loaded balls.

Perhaps the toothed outer cup and cylinder are ceased/glued together on their overlapping surface by some varnish left over from evaporated old oil. That edge looks little brown and wet in your picture, almost like it was rusted a little. Perhaps some moisture wicked into the crevice some time ago.

I've had two sewing machines I worked on that had totally ceased together in certain parts due to oil that had evaporated into glue. The "high tech" solution both times was taking a hair dryer and warming up the parts well and gently applying twisting force until the varnish softened and the parts started moving again. Once they start moving, you can get some cleaning oil and it will absorb or dissolve/expel the varnish. So try using a hair dryer and warm up the whole clutch assembly - it may work and can't do much harm.

Try not to get oil on the toothed timing belt - it's not supposed to be slipping and sliding.

That screw and collar you pictured looks like it is not part of the clutch assembly but rather holds the shaft steady against the ball bearing.

If the clutch is ceased together your timing may have slipped because the two set screws (9205102498) that hold the clutch to the hook drive shaft twisted a little. Often there's a groove in the shaft that one of the set screws goes into, but I'm not sure if your shaft has a groove. Without a groove the set screws can twist on the shaft given enough force. The set screws look like they have a flat tip, which indicates no groove (usually the set screws for a grove have a pointy tip, the ones that go on top of the shaft have a flat tip).

If the clutch is truly and permanently ceased together you have two options:

1. Ignore the clutch and treat it like a solid, permanent connection between your timing belt and the hook drive shaft (Since you didn't know you had a clutch in the first place you may not miss it all that much.) Just go through the hook timing steps as if the clutch was in its proper engaged position (which it is as it appears).

2. Take a photo of the machine with some dried fish and a case of Tor's favorite beer or wine and try to lure him to your office.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Uwe

[276ccm]

Uwe, I can't say how much I appreciate this help! Just so you know! :-)

I will for sure "steal" my girlfriends hairdryer this afternoon and give it a try! I bough this machine here in Barcelona, and at summer the humidity can be pretty crazy, so it would´t surprise me if there was some moisture in this clutch.. I know for sure the previous owner took really good care of the machine, but I guess this is difficult to know, if she wasn't an expert, as me.. :-)

Do you think the heat from the hair dryer can harm the belt?

I´m also curious if the I can carefully try to slide the belt off, and adjust in one toot.. it looks like the timing at least would be better with this, but if this is something that should absolutely not done, I´ll leave it..

The screws I loosened before I tried to twist the safety clutch was this: 0216 00052 but maybe it was not the right ones?

I didn't do anything with the screws that goes on the side: 9205 102498 (If you see on mu picture, it doesn't even looks like there is any screws there, only "deep" inside there are some shine thing, but it doesn't look like I can fit a screw driver on this head) but maybe there still is and is this the screws that I had to loosen before trying to twist the clutch in place? Maybe I misunderstood :-)

If I was still in Norway, I would for sure buy all the dried fish and Tors favourite beer hehe! Tor is a living library and a unikum for these things, and he have helped me so much over the years, so I feel a little embarrassing asking him all the time :-)

I´m soon going to Norway for Oslo Motor Show if I can finish the seats (it depends on the sewing machine) and I will for sure give Tor a visit to honour his help! :-)

Thanks so much again Uwe! :-)

[Uwe]

The 0216 00052 screws were the right ones to loosen in order to turn the safety clutch more easily. Since that didn't help, I'm thinking the two clutch part are somewhat rusted or "glued" together. The two set screws deep inside those threaded holes are what holds the clutch to the shaft. They are probably tightened pretty well. I have a strong feeling these set/clamp screws rotated/slipped on the shaft when the clutch didn't release. This is not a good thing in the long run as it will damage the shaft by creating circular grooves around the shaft. The point of the clutch is to keep this from happening.

Here's what I would do next: take the machine out of the table and put it on a piece of carpet so the hand wheel stick up in the air like this:

Then get some WD40 or similar rusted-bolt-loosener liquid and put some along the edge where the clutch cylinder meets the clutch "cup" all the way around. Use the little tube that attaches to the spray can so you don't get the stuff all over the place including the timing belt. Let gravity and capillary action pull the liquid into the space between the two clutch parts and loosen the rust/corrosion.

Let it sit for a few hours or a day. Then use the hairdryer to warm things up and hopefully the clutch will move. If it moves, add some oil and move it to loosen things up. Ideally, you take the clutch out and apart and clean it properly, but that's a major undertaking. If the clutch moves you're good for now. You can disassemble the thing after your motor show. If it doesn't move, pack the machine in a box and ship it to me for proper disposal :-)

I looked at my Adler 67 and it is pretty much identical in the hook gear area. The hook timing adjustment process is the nearly the same as for the 267. I'm gonna make a little how-to-time-your-hook video for my 67. You should be able to follow it closely to time your 267. It's not hard to do from what I've seen and done so far.

Don't try to get the timing belt off the toothed wheel. It's somewhat fragile, quite expensive and REAlLY labor intensive to replace. Re/Moving the timing belt is NOT part of the hook timing procedure.

While you're at the hardware store to get your WD-40, also get a few tools like some super short and some very skinny screw drivers, and a set of hex wrenches with T-Handles for your clutch set screws. I have screwdrivers and hex wrenches that I only use for my sewing machines and nothing else. Having the proper tool makes all the difference with some of these screws. If you strip that clutch-to-shaft set screw deep inside that threaded hole you're, well, screwed.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Uwe

[276ccm]

Muchas gracias! :-) I´ll get some WD-40 spray on Monday and do as you told me.. I´ll try to be patient and wait til I can do it properly so I won't damage anything more. I´ll also get a set of the right tools..

Super kind of you with this help and I´m looking forward to see the hook-timing video! :-)

At least now I learn a lot about my machine, and hopefully it can be very handy for later maintenance or to help someone else with this problem the right way!

Not really important in this case, but here is one of the seat I´m eager to finish before I go.. I was so close to start sewing it together :-)

I´ll post an update to this early next week, when I have all the right tools and spray, and for sure I´ll leave the timing belt alone.. :-) And I know someone will be happy that I dont need to go to the office again more this weekend..

Have a super weekend! :-)

[Tejas]

Then get some WD40 or similar rusted-bolt-loosener liquid ....

Quote from source referenced below:

Penetrating Oil Test

In a thread in the antique machinery forum, there was a discussion what to use to free up a part. Southbendmodel34 had mentioned a study in Machinist Workshop stating that Automatic transmission fluid and Acetone mixed was the best.

I just received a newsletter today from Tim Carter mentioning the same study. He had included the results of the test, which I thought interesting.

A study done by Machinist's Workshop magazine in their April 2007 issue looked at different penetrating oils to see which one did the best job of removing a rusted bolt by measuring the pounds of torque required to loosen the bolt once treated. If the study was scientifically accurate, it turns out a home brew works best!

Here's the summary of the test results:

Penetrating oil ..... Average load

None ...................... 516 pounds

WD-40 ................... 238 pounds

PB Blaster .............. 214 pounds

Liquid Wrench ...... 127 pounds

Kano Kroil ............. 106 pounds

ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds

Source: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/ot-penetrating-oil-196347/

Edited September 12, 2015 by Tejas

[Trox]

Hi Marius, I did not see the topic or your message before now. I think Uwe has helped you very well and told you everything you have to do. Your safety clutches are likely stuck, that's a common problem (hardened crease). You could also use some parafin (lamp oil) to get it loosed up again. I have not read all in this topic, so I cannot know if someone already told you this. Nevertheless, free/clean out all thread pieces from the hook. When the clutch are correct aligned you should be able push a 5 mm pin (drill bit etc) in to the hole at the back side of the clutch and it will go true both holes. It's a coronsponding hole in the inner part of the clutch, the geared part. If it's not in the right position you would not be able to push your drill bit (tool) all the way in, only true the first hole. Use a 5 mm drill bit that fit exactly in the outer hole, then you will be sure it's in the right position if you can push it all the way in. The two holes has to be aligned.

The two screws on the back side (same side as the hole is) are adjusting screws for the two Springs that pushes the balls. The other screws lock the clutch to the hook shaft, the gear should only be locked in place by the two ball with spring pressure (see Uwe´s drawings). Fill some diesel, parafin (lamp oil) in to a syringe, small oil can and soak the clutch in it. Let it stay until the morning. Hold the hook shaft with a Vise grip. With some leather around the shaft to protect it, and turn the hand wheel until I locks in place. When you can push a correct thickness, 5 mm pin true both parts of the clutch. You can try turn both ways to loosen it too, when you holding the shaft with a Vise grip (plier).

When you have loosen both screw on the back you should be able to disengage the clutch. Then you can turn the hand wheel and the hook stays still (if you hold it). Your clutch are probably full of hardened grease, some parafin will take care of that. That is a common problem on machines that has been left idle for a long time (or clutch has not been disengaged for a long time) After you have fixed it, disengage it and locked it back in correct position. You should adjust the spring pressure on these screws, turn the all the way in and a quarter rotating back again is full spring pressure. You should set it to medium spring pressure so it will disengage, but not to easy. If it disengage to easy (happens to often) you can adjust more torque (screw them more in).

WD 40 or 556 will also work good because you can spray it in easy, but the best thing is parafin.

Let me know if you get it to disengage and lock back in again.

Then you have to control your hook timing and needle bar height.

I hope you will manage to get it right, otherwise you must come to my workshop and borrow a machine. Sew your seat in my workshop, perhaps come a bit earlier to Oslo. That's and option if you not booked a flight already .

Tor

[Uwe]

I finished my how-to video on timing the hook on my Adler 67. I believe the only real difference to the 267 hook timing procedure is that the 267 has a different safety clutch and that the needle bar rise should be 1.8mm instead of 1.75mm (good luck dialing in that extra .05mm!)

I could not move my hook shaft bearing, the screws are totally seized up. Moving the hook shaft bearing to adjust distance from hook to the needle is not often necessary. I have a feeling mine has never been changed since the machine left the factory.

In any case, here's the video - enjoy!

Nice bike seat design, by the way! If you're gonna sew that thick top vegtan piece of leather to the quilted bottom part, that may be stretching the specs of the 267 a little. I'd be reaching for my Adler 205 to sew that piece. All the more reason to have a working safety clutch!

I'll have to try that special penetrating oil thing Tejas mentioned, since I could not loosen those two hook shaft bearing screws on my machine no matter what I tried.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Uwe

[Tejas]

Excellent video!

[Constabulary]

Uwe - you rock! You are hired for sewing machien Videos!

[276ccm]

Thank you so much! The video is excellent and with these very good explained instructions, I think I can do it! :-) I did some test sewing with similar pieces of leather and it was sewing fine, without the feeling of the machine working too hard.. before this thing happened. Of course I would prefer to have a 205 fir this, but for now.. :-)

Thanks for super tips too Tor, I´ll let you know for sure! I booked the flight and will stay in Oslo some weeks before the show, so if I can't fix it I´ll take your offer to borrow one of your machines in your work shop :-) I´ll for sure try to visit you anyway! :-)

Tomorrow I´ll get some WD-40 or parafin, and start the process! I´ll keep you updated!

Have a super sunday! :-)

[276ccm]

Hi again! :-) Good news and another worry..

The good news is that with a little WD-40 I managed to get my safety clutch “loose” and I can fairly easy pop it in and out of place.. but my new worry is:

When the clutch pops into place, I can not put the 5 mm pin all the way inside and the "holes" is not aligned .. only 2.5 cm. If I look down the “hole” and adjust and align the clutch I can put the 5mm pin all the way down (3 cm) but the clutch is not popped into place.

You will see both in the video: https://youtu.be/8TvA1AwvuvM

Can I pop the clutch in place and start the timing process, or is it really important that I get the "holes" in the clutch aligned, and that it is popped into place at the same time first?

This is maybe because the screws that attach the clutch to the shaft, slipped a little, due to the hard clutch?

[Uwe]

Nice job of getting the clutch to work - yay!

Obi-Wan Kenobi would say "This is not the hole you're looking for."

The hole that you see at the bottom of the viewing/check hole in your video is not the check hole, but rather the hole the little ball pops into when the clutch engages. You're turning the clutch exactly 90˚ from the "pop" to showing up in the viewing hole.

The main difference between your clutch and mine is that mine has only one ball and matching hole - it will engage only once every full rotation (360˚). When mine pops into place it's in the right position.

Your clutch has two opposing balls and it will engage every half turn (180˚), or twice every full turn. Only one of the those two pops per full 360˚ turn is the correct one. So the clutch engages either in the correct position or exactly 180˚ off. The point of the viewing/check hole is to make sure it is in the "correct" 180˚ position.

Keep turning the wheel until the clutch engages and the check holes line up. You were exactly 180˚ off in your video. All is well, really, just give it another half turn.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Uwe