How Not To Respond To Advice

[Darren Brosowski]

Despite being based in Australia I get a few questions from members in North America and in most cases I point people to guys like Gregg, Bob, Steve or Ronnie that I think can help them out at a more reasonable cost.

I also get lots of parts orders on eBay from the US and I a sure that quite a few are from members here so you have my thanks for helping to pay my rent.

Over the last couple of weeks I have had some really dumb, nasty replies from people that I believe are members here so a few of points;

1/ I am a Cowboy dealer in Australia but that doeas not make me responsible for issues you are having with your machine. I try to help as a courtesy as the problems are user, not machine, related.

2/ If I refer you to a US or Canadian supplier it is because the shipping cost out of Australia is not worth the effort. When you buy a machine from a local supplier then they are your technical and warranty support. When you import a machine - by law - you own the warranty.

3/ Please do not whine about the support you are getting from the guy who sold you the machine. If it was from a dealer here then I have no doubt that they will bend over backwards to help. Your lack of sewing knowledge is not their problem BUT they will support you as much as they can. Abusing someone half a world away for not making your machine do what you want is just childish.

4/ If you buy a machine direct from China then I will get it going at my quoted hourly rate.

5/ If it is a GB2972 then I will not touch it and no further correxpondence will be entered into

Sorry, rant over

[George3]

Someone get burnt toast this morning :-)

You can deal with some of the people some of the time,

BUT, you can't deal with all the people all of the time!

I just ignore or don't respond...

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

It's new school vs. old school. The story goes like this;

I know by word of mouth where a customer once called "I have one of your machines, with your name on it." Dealer asks "OK, where did you get it from?"

"I bought it at auction." says customer.

"OK, then I can't help you." [click goes the telephone as dealer hangs up]

It's a different time, guys like my Dad would be accustomed to loyal customers who would buy equipment, parts and supplies for life. They would get deeply offended and jealous when you would buy from another dealer or supplier. I have options just like you do when I buy.

Often, we would 'win' these customers simply by acting in an altruistic behavior, and most often it comes back to us somewhere else. If I can't help, I'll not to dead end someone and help them find the help they can use.

It's not at all uncommon for sewing dealers to act outside of social norms, and my dad's favorite stories were where he was throwing someone out of the shop. I've heard of other dealers throwing out customers (literally) by their belt loop. So it's not you, it's us.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[George3]

Point well taken, well said, and you are right...

[TinkerTailor]

It's new school vs. old school. The story goes like this;

I know by word of mouth where a customer once called "I have one of your machines, with your name on it." Dealer asks "OK, where did you get it from?"

"I bought it at auction." says customer.

"OK, then I can't help you." [click goes the telephone as dealer hangs up]

It's a different time, guys like my Dad would be accustomed to loyal customers who would buy equipment, parts and supplies for life. They would get deeply offended and jealous when

Yes, However if the person didn't buy the thing from you, they better recognize that you have no obligation to them. At my day job, I will preface these conversations with "Normally i would charge for this but i'm going to help you out anyways cause i like you", or something. This sets the tone early without being confrontational. After, If the person is rude or confrontational or dis-respectfull in any way, and didn't pay me to put up with it then they can kick rocks.,......If they bought the thing or even other things from you, be more flexible. A disappointed past customer is more important to accomodate than a future sale, or a no-sale. Your past sales are what brings in the new ones. At the end of the interaction, frequently the person will ask if they owe me anything, because they now appreciate the help i gave them. I always tell them all they owe me is a visit back to purchase something, or get their bike fixed, while also not so subtly indicating where the tip jar is (if it is in person)

This is a great technique to pull in a new customer. Getting honest advice and a little service for free is unheard-of today. Humour goes a long way as well. Being charming and funny can make saying no so much easier, However, the trick is it is never advantageous to you to give a freebee or a discount if the person does not realize you have.

People come in to bike shops daily to borrow tools. We clearly have 4 signs between the door and the mechanics stand that say "We Do Not Lend Our Tools". People just walk in and grab a wrench and use it. They also ask to take them outside to fix their own bike. I inform them that no, i don't lend my shop tools, however i sell home mechanics tools just for this purpose. If they kick up a fuss which quite a few do....."i only need it for a minute" "I just need to tighten my seat" "can i just use your xyz for a second" yaddayadddayadda......

I tell them to go get a pound of ground beef and some buns, go to burger king, walk in the back and say,

"I brought my own beef and bun, can I use your grill? Got any cheese?"

Or say:

"Where do you live, I need to do my laundry and I don't want to buy a machine"

Edited December 11, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[Uwe]

Now I had to look up what a GB2972 is. I'll add it on my list of machines to avoid.

Personally I find it really useful when people provide some basic context by filling out their profile or have a signature that gives some indication about location and business affiliations. Everything is "local" on the internet, but the physical world doesn't work that way. Many answers and questions depend on where somebody is located on planet earth. Some (not all) misunderstandings and ungrateful reactions due to unmet expectations can be avoided with basic context.

There's also a thin line between helping and enabling, at times. Some threads apparently start with a thought process like "Golly, it'll take me five minutes to look this up myself. Let me just post a quick question on the forum instead and have ten people spend half an hour each researching and composing elaborate responses." It takes considerable effort to suppress a snarky "Let me google that for you" or "Let me look that up for you in the manual I gave you yesterday".

Sewing machines also should come with warning labels like "Do not loosen that screw unless you know what it does" and "Do not take it apart unless you know how to put it back together"

Ahhh, all better now. A little rant once in a while feels good.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Yes, However if the person didn't buy the thing from you, they better recognize that you have no obligation to them.

This is a story for a different day, but this is also why customers lie.

Person shows up with a sewing machine, and tells me that it was working, it does not need much, but just get it up and running; don't put a lot of money into it. Guy then asks "What can I get for this on Ebay?" like I set the market prices.

Oh, and BTW, this machine was missing a complete tension, an other critical working parts, it was not sewing. Just like the car he drove up in was not missing three tires, an engine, a transmission, or whatever else. Like we don't know what we are doing here.

Like TinkerTailor said, all I'm pointing out is that situations like this truly are a two way street, if it's going to work, and the approach by the customer can have a lot to do with it. I can say with this one example, in this case, no, I was not highly motivated to help this customer in this particular case, sorry to say.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[TinkerTailor]

Uwe, That is why home machines have snap in feet and accessories, there is nothing scarier to a sewing machine company/mechanic than a seamstress/ster with a screwdriver........If i can turn this screw, i must be able to turn that one.

While tailor works, shouldn't the masculine of seamstress a seamster? Sounds very hoffa......We should start seamsters union.

I nominate Wiz for prez, cause the slogan is great.

And Gregg, "Winners find a way to win, and losers the converse" I have given up on changing this, and use it as a mental mantra to keep the blood temp down.

Edited December 11, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[SARK9]

>>While tailor works, shouldn't the masculine of seamstress a seamster?<<

I've been referring to myself by that handle for quite a while....It sort of evolved from finding that the word *sewer* has a rather unfortunate spelling....

-DC

[Art]

Uwe, That is why home machines have snap in feet and accessories, there is nothing scarier to a sewing machine company/mechanic than a seamstress/ster with a screwdriver........If i can turn this screw, i must be able to turn that one.

It is curious that Singer made machines that you could work on with just a screwdriver, ok maybe a large and a small screwdriver, and in a few cases a Very large screwdriver. However, they may have never produced a screw that you could purchase at a real hardware store (as opposed to the bubble packed retail establishments of today).

My grandad was a NCR cash register routeman (mechanic and sales) who had about half of the West as his route. I inherited his tools, and 85% of them were screwdrivers and 10% pliers, the rest were files, hammers, and a few really specialty things. So even cash registers were made so the common guy could get in there and muck things up without ever needing to go buy a wrench.

Art

[Wizcrafts]

snip

My grandad was a NCR cash register routeman (mechanic and sales) who had about half of the West as his route.

snip

Art

My Father was a tailor and had his own shop for a half century. He couldn't play a musical instrument, but, he sure could play his NCR cash register! Cha-ching.

[TinkerTailor]

It is curious that Singer made machines that you could work on with just a screwdriver, ok maybe a large and a small screwdriver, and in a few cases a Very large screwdriver. However, they may have never produced a screw that you could purchase at a real hardware store (as opposed to the bubble packed retail establishments of today).

My grandad was a NCR cash register routeman (mechanic and sales) who had about half of the West as his route. I inherited his tools, and 85% of them were screwdrivers and 10% pliers, the rest were files, hammers, and a few really specialty things. So even cash registers were made so the common guy could get in there and muck things up without ever needing to go buy a wrench.

Art

If you look at home machines from the 50's until now, the number of exposed screws has declined, they gradually all get covered by housings or replaced entirely by snap together plastic enclosures. User servicable items are a nightmare for the warranty and service department, non-user servicable forces them to bring it in and get it serviced, then told to buy that new machine right there....

I know, there is a whole other issue here, and a comment about non-serviceable disposable society being non-functional, but i try to keep my politics outta this site....for the most part

Edited December 11, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[TZBrown]

I truly understand the frustration, Though I am only a hobby seamster, with very limited leather experience,

When I got into sewing outdoor gear that was not available or affordable about 15 years ago. Repaired, rebuilt and re-timed many home machines and given many away to those less fortunate that wanted to learn to sew. Even a few commercials on the list. If I have to ask a question on a machine I had really tried to find the answer beforehand, and really do appreciate the knowledge that folks on here share.

To me there is no excuse for rudeness, or the expectation that someone is "owed" an answer.

Right now I am working on my Consew 226, reverse stitch length needs to be more balanced to forward, It will get there. I usually would just stitch forward 3 turn the work around and continue to lock it, but I am sure I can do better

Edited December 11, 2015 by TZBrown

[TinkerTailor]

I truly understand the frustration, Though I am only a hobby seamster, with very limited leather experience,

When I got into sewing outdoor gear that was not available or affordable about 15 years ago. Repaired, rebuilt and re-timed many home machines and given many away to those less fortunate that wanted to learn to sew. Even a few commercials on the list. If I have to ask a question on a machine I had really tried to find the answer beforehand, and really do appreciate the knowledge that folks on here share.

To me there is no excuse for rudeness, or the expectation that someone is "owed" an answer.

Right now I am working on my Consew 206, reverse stitch length needs to be more balanced to forward, It will get there. I usually would just stitch forward 3 turn the work around and continue to lock it, but I am sure I can do better

If I have to ask someone at a business for advice, provided I am not already a customer, I try my hardest to find something to buy as at least a small token of respect and thanks. It goes a long way the next time. If you go there in person, phone first, ask if they are too busy to see you, and ask if they want a coffee, or anything. Small tokens get big prizes sometimes, which you will never see if you don't throw out a token now and again.

[TZBrown]

If I have to ask someone at a business for advice, provided I am not already a customer, I try my hardest to find something to buy as at least a small token of respect and thanks. It goes a long way the next time. If you go there in person, phone first, ask if they are too busy to see you, and ask if they want a coffee, or anything. Small tokens get big prizes sometimes, which you will never see if you don't throw out a token now and again.

Fully agree with this, And I always have bought something or left $$ on the counter before I left, if I couldn't find something I needed

[gottaknow]

I allow operators in the factory to change needles and presser feet. That's it. I don't let the supervisors do anything more either. I have over 100 machines to keep in top working condition. I still have folks that take the liberty to "touch" things they have no idea what they do. The arguments I get are usually based on their experiences with their home machines. Apples to oranges.

The two machines I've helped people with on this forum were butchered by people who supposedly had good intentions but lacked the knowledge. The dealers on this site go above and beyond from what I can tell. There are always two sides to the story. Wow. That was a whole lot of rambling.

Regards, Eric

[Darren Brosowski]

Don't get me wrong folks, I provide a lot of advice gratis and think nothing of it.

The "problem" is when someone pretty much demads free help with their machine. I have had the odd email from customers of the guys mentioned above so of course I suggest they go back to the supplier as I know they will help.

As Gregg suggested it is more likely that they bought something on ebay etc that looks like a Cowboy/Techsew/Whatever and think that as we sell something that loks like it we should provide endless help.

The big killer is when they ask "You have this part on eBay - do you know where I can get it cheaper?". Two word answer to that question and one of the words starts with .........

[okiwen]

Fully agree with this, And I always have bought something or left $$ on the counter before I left, if I couldn't find something I needed

Yup to both of these. I needed information and asked on here and called Keystone. Got great info and ended up buying a new motor and a whole bunch of stuff I really didn't need yet,just because I appreciated the help. If I am ever in need of a bondage item I'll call Wiz. Had my eye on a new machine from Steve since I had to sell the Artisan he helped me with when I bought it from him so long ago. Good group of guys here.

[Darren Brosowski]

Lots of guys here give free advice.

I have been known to throw my 2c worth in even though I am half way across the world and there is no commercial interest in doing so.

There are two ways to look at it

1/ There is an international upswing incustom leaterwork and promoting it helps my business

2/ I just love bloody big machines of all sorts.

Take your pick LOL

[Wizcrafts]

Snip

If I am ever in need of a bondage item I'll call Wiz.

Snip

Huh?

[Art]

If I am ever in need of a bondage item I'll call Wiz.

I was wondering what Wiz did on those long cold nights up in Michigan.

Art

[Art]

I do so little repair anymore, mostly my own machines and some of the sail and canvas crowd I have paled with for ages. I order my parts through a dealer I have bought from since my wife's first Elna in '73. When the home machines break (excepting the 221s and 222s, and 201s, I understand old singers), I just take them to the dealer, I don't ask questions and I pay whatever. I did take apart a cheap ($100 new) Bernina one time, and the build quality was so bad I just took the parts to my dealer and told him to use it for a parts machine. Develop a relationship with a dealer. Don't buy crap (even Pfaff) from a factory closeout if you don't know what you are doing, and please don't expect the dealer to fix or adjust something you bought off of eBay or Craig's List. This is just common business courtesy and common sense.

And another thing, if you don't know what you are doing, buy a new machine from a dealer, would you rather be sewing, or turning screwdrivers?

Art

[okiwen]

Huh?

Ya know, I think I meant the interests that Art has listed....but if your knowledgeable, I guess I could ask you too. See, you ARE helpful.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Huh?

Wiz and Art,

I'm laughing out loud reading that. New and improved, PM Wiz both for sewing equipment and now bdsm gear!

[Darren Brosowski]

My initial knowledge of sewing came from an ex girlfriend who has been sewing from the age of 15. She started out on a factory floor churning out garments but taught herself patternmaking and eventually developed her own clothing range.

Somewhere in that mix she spend time doing custom work for one of the biggest bondage wear suppliers in Australia. While it is not the most pleasant industry she did learn a lot about sewing odd materials and many is the time she has provided the right answer to difficult questions. It is good to have a partner who can sew and knows about odd materials

Wiz and Art,

I'm laughing out loud reading that. New and improved, PM Wiz both for sewing equipment and now bdsm gear!