Machine Longevity

[l2bravo]

So I'm about 2 months in a Cowboy 3200, and way dig it. I keep it clean and oiled and make sure all is good, regularly.

Which leads me to my question. These things are built like tanks for sure. With the Landis, and trillion Singer machines still in operation, that are 80+ years old, what can we expect? Will these last us 20 or 30 years? Are they infinitely rebuildable? Just curious more than anything.

[Hockeymender]

With proper care and maintenance, and provided the machine is not being run eight to ten hours a day, five days a week, the Cowboy machines should last for many years. I would say it's not out of the question to expect 20 or 30 years of service from them IMHO.

[Art]

In the hands of a competent mechanic, and the availability of parts (or a shop to make them if necessary) a reasonably well made machine will last hundreds of years. It is only a matter of maintenance and repair.

Chinese (Taiwan too) equipment has looked like it was built in the early 20th century and was built along the lines of machines made here and in Europe, so while the castings might not be up to our standards (but more often than not they are), if the holes are in the right places and can support the loads, then the machine is of reasonable enough quality to last centuries.

I have:

Van Norman 12 Mill circa 1938

Taiwanese 15" Lathe circa 1990

Landis 12 machines, circa 1940

Boot and Shoe nailers from the 1950s

Shoe Machines from the 1950s

Campbell Lockstitch machine that was in a Saddle shop in 1940

Buffers and grinders from the 60s and 70s

Industrial Sewing Machines (Chinese) from the 90s and 2000s

Tons (literally) of other machinery not even produced anymore

in my shop today, and it all works. Most of it spent many years in production environments.

Use it, maintain it, fix it, and it will last forever.

Your kids or heirs will sell your sewing machine to someone who will be tickled to have it.

Art

[Wizcrafts]

I have a little side business refurbishing and selling old iron Singer sewing machines. The oldest one in the rack right now is a model 27, from 1902. I cleaned, oiled and lubed it, then adjusted the clearance of the bullet shuttle. That 114 year old machine sews 2 layers of 4-5 ounce leather, denim jeans and just about anything I can fit under the foot, with #69 bonded nylon thread. The Sphinx decals are in good condition. It amazes me that nobody has expressed the slightest interest in buying the machine. Quite frankly, I don't care. I know I can cart it into my shop (15 feet away) and sew with it in one minute or less. It does one thing and does it well. It sews tight, straight stitches, up to 5 to the inch.

One hundred fourteen years and still going strong. It thrives on oil, clear grease and fair treatment. With more of the same, I expect that it will be capable of continuing on its timeless journey for another hundred years.

Treat your Cowboy machine with the same respect and it will outlive you.

[Skipndance]

Hi Wiz,

I have a quick question on the old Singer machine. I have inherited my mom's machines and one is a Singer 7-27. Is that the same as the model 27 you are referring to? I'd like to find any info and or manual - if there is such a thing for it. I'm just starting to look it up right now, so I will probably find some info, but curious for your comment.

Thanks!

Edited February 17, 2016 by Skipndance

[TinkerTailor]

Hi Wiz,

I have a quick question on the old Singer machine. I have inherited my mom's machines and one is a Singer 7-27. Is that the same as the model 27 you are referring to? I'd like to find any info and or manual - if there is such a thing for it. I'm just starting to look it up right now, so I will probably find some info, but curious for your comment.

Thanks!

7-27 is a different machine.He is refering to a 27k.

a 7-27 is a double needle industrial machine for sewing tarps and sails.

It is listed here:

http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/model-list/classes-1-99.html

Edited February 17, 2016 by TinkerTailor

[Wizcrafts]

7-27 is a different machine.He is refering to a 27k.

a 7-27 is a double needle industrial machine for sewing tarps and sails.

It is listed here:

http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/model-list/classes-1-99.html

The Sphynx machine I mentioned is not a 27k. It is a straight model 27, from 1902 and is the predecessor or the model 127, which I also have for sale. Nonetheless, it is an early model of a domestic sewing machine, with capabilities in excess of the plastic machines built today. Plus, it looks awesome! There is a thorough write-up, with photos, about both the 27 and 127 on this Wikipedia page.

[TinkerTailor]

The Sphynx machine I mentioned is not a 27k. It is a straight model 27, from 1902 and is the predecessor or the model 127, which I also have for sale. Nonetheless, it is an early model of a domestic sewing machine, with capabilities in excess of the plastic machines built today. Plus, it looks awesome! There is a thorough write-up, with photos, about both the 27 and 127 on this Wikipedia page.

I also have a sphinx machine, a 27. 1908 i think. ..... That is what i meant. I misread his post, answered him completely wrong, then went back, edited it and fixed my post but ended up with an extra K......Singer model names turn into a mess when memory gets involved......Funny thing is, the 27 is one of the few i do not have a pdf for. I have the real deal manual.

[gottaknow]

There is no way the Juki Chinese machines will outlive the old Singers from the 50's and 60's. The tight tolerances just aren't there. At least they're using Seiko hooks in them. As I see it, the downfall will be the bronze bushings that are already showing play after just a few years. The market for the textile side of things dictates they last five years until they are fully depreciated, then they'll get replaced. For a hobby sewer, they'll last a long time as long as the electronics hold up.

Regards, Eric

[TinkerTailor]

There is no way the Juki Chinese machines will outlive the old Singers from the 50's and 60's. The tight tolerances just aren't there. At least they're using Seiko hooks in them. As I see it, the downfall will be the bronze bushings that are already showing play after just a few years. The market for the textile side of things dictates they last five years until they are fully depreciated, then they'll get replaced. For a hobby sewer, they'll last a long time as long as the electronics hold up.

Regards, Eric

and they get oiled properly of course. Those old singers are much more forgiving of forgetting to oil it this week.....

[gottaknow]

The new Juki single and double needles don't use oil in the top part of the machine. They promote it as the "oil-less" heads, supposedly meant to keep oil off the fabric. Instead, they use a thin grease that you supposedly pack into certain areas on the top of the head. I think it's a huge mistake on their part. They have also started using aluminum and other soft alloys on parts they shouldn't be. Union Special tried this back in the 90's to save money and those machines have long since failed. They also quit providing replacement parts in essence making several models obsolete.

Regards, Eric

[Art]

There is really only one industrial machine that is, shall we say, oilless; and then not really. Pfaff machines use a lot of roller, needle, and ball bearings in their machines. They do however provide either oil pumps or instructions to manually oil the hook races and grease the gears where the hookshaft goes vertical. Now packed bearings won't last forever, but they are easily replaceable, and they do last a long time. There is a company in China that specializes in Pfaff clones. I have one of these and it is remarkable what they have done. They make the older mainstay models that gave Pfaff their name. If you put permanently packed bearings everywhere, the machines will last essentially forever, because you can do an overhaul and get a new machine. But still, a drop of oil here and there is necessary with even the most bearing-upped machine. Longevity is always a matter of maintenance.

Art

[Constabulary]

seems to proof me right again - keep old cast iron alive

[gottaknow]

The problem isn't so much the bearings, but the castings themselves. I have 4 year old Jukis where the bearings are slipping in the casting. Their tolerances are all over the place. Once a bearing spins, you're done. Of course we sew 40 hours a week on these, but we are still using Singer 112's, 111's, 211's and 300W's side by side and the older machines are much tighter. I have 25 or so Juki 5410 lockstitch machines that are 15-20 years old, made in Japan. The heads are still in decent shape, but the servos are tired and not available any longer. I'm replacing them with the new Chinese Juki's, the 9010's. They have the new direct drive motors, but overall the build quality just isn't there. I have very little faith in any Chinese built industrial machine, I don't care which factory they come from. I recently bought a Reece 101 Keyhole buttonhole machine that was made from the original prints. It was made in the Czech Republic. The build quality is pretty decent, but the machines I'm still using from Reece that were made in the 60's are superior quality. They were made in the USA.

Regards, Eric

Again, in the hobbyist setting they'll last a long time if taken care of.

[Art]

There used to be something of value in producing something (like a sewing machine) in one place. Control of manufacture of your product allowed to keep a hand on quality even if it cost a little more to do so. Singer did it, and their machines are still running today. But somewhere along the way someone brought cost competition into the mix and quality went down to drive cost. Hell, we don't need no freaking QC. Now, everything (all the parts) comes from suppliers and manufacturers that live to the cost paradigm. GIGO, garbage in garbage out. Let me see a show of hands (bet you haven't seen that one on the net yet) of those who would buy a 441 type machine for $5,000 or $6,000 or more. Maybe an established factory who really looks to long term operations. But the bean counters get in there, with operations research that says to buy the cheap machine and replace it when you can't reasonably maintain it. So on we go keeping the good stuff running if we can and buying crap that we can replace cheaper than repair. Is it any wonder Wal-Mart survives?

Art

[gottaknow]

The entire scope of sewing machine manufacturing has changed drastically since I started in 1980. We bought mainly American made Singers, Union Specials, Reece and others.

About the time NAFTA came into being, a lot of apparel companies started outsourcing a percentage of their work. This raised profits and lowered quality. The public didn't care as they were enjoying the price points. There was then a need for sewing machines to made overseas as well, since that's where the factories were. The first Japanese machines we got had serious issues. These included Kansai, Consew, Mitsubishi and so on. The machines that come from Japan now are decent. I imagine in 20 years, the quality of the Chinese machines will be higher. Our company buys mainly Juki's except for specialty machines. Our leather luggage shop uses primarily older Adlers which we maintain. We've tried some 441 clones and kill them in short order. We basically don't purchase any clones at all. I did purchase a Highlead zig zag machine which we killed in 4 months, just long enough for my Juki to arrive. The Highlead was a complete POS. We are a high volume Juki customer, so we get machines at a much lower cost than others. They have a larger margin, so they can discount. We purchased company wide probably 130 machines last year. The majority of them are Juki's. We also track their maintenance cost and can replace any machine that has been depreciated. We keep the old timers around (including me!) because they keep working. I use many of them for specialty operations. It's frustrating when you have a machine that's a year old and you're replacing needlebar bushings. It is what it is. At least our products are made in the USA and we guarantee them for life. I feel good about that.

Regards, Eric

Edited February 18, 2016 by gottaknow

[Dougster]

This thread is really reinforcing my happiness about buying these older machines. Secondarily, it makes me appreciate my 65 year-old, 30 years-of-experience repair guy even more!