Pfaff 467 Vs Juki Lu 563 Vs Adler 167

[Sepp]

Hello everybody,

my name is Joe, and I am about to sew my first piece of leather, but first I need a proper machine to do that.

Basically i am an industrial designer, who likes to craft his own furniture. Besides that I figured I could need a nice shop apron. So what I am looking for is triple transport machine that can do furniture grade leather up to 1/4" or so, so nothing special there. I might be doing upholstery as well. Not to intrigued by tick hsaddle and veg tan leather, so I believe I don't need a cobbler machine...

Now I found three local machines which sound like what I need, but since prices and technical features differ, I'd like to hear your expertise.

1: Pfaff 467 - for as little as 200 Euros - the foot seems rusted, but overall the machine looks decent, as far as I can tell on those pictures.

2: Juki LU 563 - 600 Euros

3: Adler 167 - 600 Euros ...comes with a "stepping motor"...not sure if that's the same which you seem to refer to as "servo motor".

Provided those three candidates are in good working condition, would you prefer one over the other?

It's hard to find any reviews on the Pfaff, so I guess it made it into my selection, just because of the price.

Can it compete with the Adler at all, which I consider the greatest of those three, not only because of the german made quality, but also because of the geared motor which is appealing to a beginner like me.

Does the Juki anything better than the Adler? Is it a better machine after all?

Is the Pfaff as great as Juki/Adler, or would you ditch it right away?

I'd like to make a decision as early as possible - looking forward to your comments.

Thanks,

Joe

[Uwe]

That Pfaff 467 is a strange design and you may have a very hard time finding parts for it.

The Juki 563 and Adler 167 are very common with lots of parts available, both are very good designs with nearly identical capabilities and comparable quality.

My advice would be to avoid the Pfaff and toss a coin between the Adler and the Juki (if they're in similar condition).

[SARK9]

All three candidates are nice machines. The main thing the Pfaff has to recommend it is its price...I'm not sure its in the same class as the others in terms of stitch length, thread size and capacity, plus its an "automatic oiler"-- which suggests it is designed more for high speed operation. I also have a Pfaff 481 which is in the same "family" of machines as the one you show...mine uses a needle-feed and bottom feed transport, and I'd guess the main difference is yours also has a rather complex walking presser foot added in. Its a nice machine for FABRIC, which is what I use mine for.

I own and use a Juki LU-563, and the one you are considering looks to be lightly used and in nice shape. These are based on a well understood series of machine designs and models that are quite popular, can handle slightly heavier work than what you mentioned, and have the advantage of readily available/inexpensive parts, accessories and information. The quality is very good as these were made in Japan and well executed. It DOES have a clutch motor, which may or may not be a show stopper...some of them are less heart-stopping than others, and you may find you possess the Olympics-grade physical and mental gifts that allow you to be comfortable with FEATHERING these stark, noisy power hogs. If not, you will need to budget in an inexpensive "servo motor" or try out smaller motor pulleys combined with speed reducers. Without some hint as to which part of the Europlanet you are shopping in, this could be a rather expensive plan.

No question that the Adler is a great machine for your requirements, but it may be surprisingly expensive to maintain in terms of repair parts or add-on accessories (IF EVER NEEDED) in comparison to the Juki. The motor looks like a programmable commercial/factory power solution with optional outputs for things like foot lifts, reverse stitching, and maybe on-the-fly patterns and stitch lengths. You will need to check the required voltages in your area to see if its compatible in a non-factory setting, and check into whether it requires compressed air and some minor plumbing to take advantage of its various features. Some of those motors are pretty configurable and not beyond understanding. I got a Mitsubishi LimiStop Z on one of mine (which I don't actually use) but it had pretty readily available manuals and literature and sounded pretty interesting, though it was not at all what I needed. I replaced it with an inexpensive servo motor, and if you find you need to as well, then you may weight the advantage to the Juki of these 3 candidates.

Toss a coin to decide between the Juki and Adler, then go best of 3, and then best 3-out-of-5 until you get the one you actually want subconsciously. Good luck-

-DC

Edited January 31, 2016 by SARK9

[Sepp]

I'm amazed by the amount of info you guys provide.

I forgot to mention one fact about the Adler: it is hooked up for 380V, but the seller offered to rebuild it to 230V (which I need).

According to him it was a fairly simple process.

I asked him if that would reduce the power of the machine, and he then replied that during his years as a leatherworker he would have been unable to really tell the difference...what are your thoughts on that?

If I rebuild the Juki with a servo, will that allow me to go as slow, to do stitch for stitch sewing?

Not sure if Germany is the best country to get affordable Adler parts, but I'm a german native speaker, and live within walking distance to the border.

Thanks,

Joe

[Wizcrafts]

I'm amazed by the amount of info you guys provide.

Snip

If I rebuild the Juki with a servo, will that allow me to go as slow, to do stitch for stitch sewing?

Not sure if Germany is the best country to get affordable Adler parts, but I'm a german native speaker, and live within walking distance to the border.

Thanks,

Joe

Joe;

I would go with the Juki and learn to feather the clutch first. If you have trouble controlling it, change the motor pulley to one that is 50mm or 70mm in diameter. This will slow down the machine at all times and may not let you get long runs done as quickly as normal upholstery machines. If you charge by the hour, faster is better (in upholstery). The Juki is capable of sewing quite fast, when needed.

If you find you have a hard time controlling the slower speeds on the clutch motor, look into getting a servo motor. Try to find one with your available voltage and connection, which is rated at 1/2 horse power or better and has a rotary knob to limit the top speed. I have three motors like that, two of which are the Family Sew model FS-550s. I don't know if that motor is available in 220 volts or not, but others probably are. It is even possible that the same company ships a different brand name of the same motor to European customers. The advantage of this type of motor is that you can just twist the knob to slow it down to about 2 stitches per second flat out. Twist the other way and it will drive the walking foot machine as fast as it can go. You get slow speed accuracy, plus high speed money making capabilities, all in one motor.

[Wizcrafts]

Joe;

You asked about "stitch by stitch sewing" I can do that with any motor I have, including clutch motors. You have to treat the foot pedal like you are driving a Beetle or Fiat, or some other small clutch operated car. You slowly move the toe down until you feel the motor start to engage. There is an adjustment bolt on the right end of these motors that lets you adjust the free play before the clutch engages.

All clutch motors accept a standard inside diameter (usually 20mm) type 3L, v-belt pulley. Type 3L v-belts are 3/8 inch, or 10mm across the top and are the standard for the industrial sewing machine industry. These pulleys are made in outside diameters ranging from about 40mm, up. I have found that I can feather one with a 70mm pulley as well as one with a 50mm, down to 1 stitch per second. The difference is in the top end. The 70mm lets you sew about 50% faster with the pedal down.

If you buy a servo motor after the machine, it may need some special linkages or changes to where the linkage bracket is connected to the floor pedal, to line it up under the control arm. Most servo motors have the control arm facing forward, towards the operator. All clutch motors have the leever under the motor, facing sideways and connecting on the left end, via a ball joint, straight down to the pedal.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Wizcrafts

[Constabulary]

I would buy the Juki and update it with a servo motor from College Sewing in the UK. Advantage of the Juki is that you can get a wide range of presser feet and spare parts in good quality and a fair price form College Sewing in the UK or Ebay.com. Original Adler and Pfaff parts are extremely expensive but you get some aftermarket parts at College Sewing as well.

I´m buying almost all my parts from College Sewing. I also using their JACK servo motors and I´m quite pleased.

Wiz - In Germany we also have clutch motors (KOBOLD brand) with lever facing toward the operator

[SARK9]

The newer generation of brushless, all-electronic servomotors are now configured in a *modular* assembly, in such a way that you can mount the various components remote from their traditional locations in just about any way you need. I was out of table space in my area when I added a patcher-type machine, but I was able to use an existing work counter and easily locate the servo components in the most convenient way. Its simply too easy.

Dead easy to locate the actuator anywhere you need to align it.

-DC

[Art]

I would buy the Juki and update it with a servo motor from College Sewing in the UK. Advantage of the Juki is that you can get a wide range of presser feet and spare parts in good quality and a fair price form College Sewing in the UK or Ebay.com. Original Adler and Pfaff parts are extremely expensive but you get some aftermarket parts at College Sewing as well.

I´m buying almost all my parts from College Sewing. I also using their JACK servo motors and I´m quite pleased.

Wiz - In Germany we also have clutch motors (KOBOLD brand) with lever facing toward the operator

Keep the feet in mind, especially for a designer where you won't have six different machines for six different functions. Pfaff and Adler feet are EXPENSIVE if you can find what you want at all. Juki feet are cheap and there are a bazillion different ones.

Art

[Sepp]

Darn!!! I wrote the guy yesterday, that I want it, but the machine was gone...

I also asked the seller if he has more of those Juki's coming by, and he said usually every few weeks...

There's plenty of Durkopp/Adlers around, but after checking the service parts availability/pricing I will be waiting patiently for another Juki.

Is there anything else you would recommend looking for (similar price range/features)?

Thanks to all who replied.

Joe