Servo With No Reducer Pulley, Or Reducer With Clutch Motor?

[llucas]

My Adler 205-374 is almost repaired and ready for primetime, but as a novice to sewing machines I cannot control the clutch motor to obtain a slow rate of stitching. I am going to buy a servo and reducer pulley to slow this Beast down, but can only afford to get one at a time. So, new servo with no reducer pulley, or use the existing clutch motor with a reducer pulley? Eventually I will purchase both, but right now I can only spring for one or the other. What are your observations?

Edited February 10, 2016 by llucas

[electrathon]

Buy the motor first.

[Wizcrafts]

The clutch motor equipped with a typical 3" diameter pulley, feeding a 2:1 speed reducer should do the trick. Just back off the motor's clutch adjuster bolt for a comfortable amount of free play before the clutch engages. You get the benefit of the free play that most servo motors lack. The 2:1 reducer doubles the torque and reduces the speed to 1/2. With the pedal down, you would convert your 1725 rpm motor to 862 rpm at the output of the reducer. The pulley diameter on the flywheel is probably about 6 inches or more. I would guess that the small reducer pulley to flywheel pulley ratio would be at least 3:1, giving you a top speed of under 5 stitches per second; pedal to the metal. A smaller motor pulley will slow it down even further, possible to as little as 2.5 stitches per second, which you can surely learn to feather down to under 1 stitch per second.

[Wizcrafts]

I should have clarified that a servo motor alone may not be strong enough to power the machine through thick leather without help from the hand wheel. It would definitely have to be a very high wattage motor and have a very small motor pulley. You will need the speed reducer either way.

[SARK9]

As someone new to these machines, I would be surprised if you found your initiation into the archaic world of buzzing clutch motors something very enjoyable. Unless you really need to jump right into the super hard and thick materials right off the bat, and need a further challenge as you learn to precisely control your stitching, I too suggest getting the best servo you can afford *first*. Try to find a suitable model that comes with a pulley around 50mm.

There are also a pretty good number of DIY speed reducer designs that people have been kind enough to share here, so a quick search and a bit of reading may spark a cost saving idea or two that will serve well in the meanwhile.

Otherwise, you may find, as countless others have lamented, there are some very sound reasons that the boneyard pallets are piled high with discarded clutch motors across the width and breadth of this land.

-DC

[Wizcrafts]

My Cowboy CB4500 is very similar to the Adler 205-370 machines. I have a Family Sew 550s servo motor with a 50mm pulley and a 3:1 speed reducer with three pulleys. As an experiment, I tried going directly from the motor to machine and it had a very hard time penetrating a quarter inch of bridle leather, at slow speed, without me manually turning the hand wheel to get it going. Servo motors produce much less torque at slower/startup speeds. Once under way, the motor was able to keep it sewing until I stopped applying power. This gets aggravating if you need both hands on the work from the get-go.

Reconnecting the speed reducer restored the full slow speed experience needed to start with both hands on the work.

I did own an Adler 204-374 flat bed walking foot machine a few years ago. It had a 3/4 hp, 1725 rpm clutch motor, with a 2" pulley, feeding a 2 pulley speed reducer, feeding the huge pulley on the machine. The top speed was 2.5 stitches per second and it penetrated anything I could fit under the foot. Controlling the clutch was a piece of cake for my foot and it feathered down to 1 stitch every 2 seconds.

Just my 2 cents

[llucas]

One complicating factor with the clutch motor on my machine: when the motor is powered up and sits idle, if I turn off the power and then without any power to the machine depress the pedal to turn the flywheel by hand the machine runs away with four or five stitches even though it is not powered up. It seems to spool up tension while sitting idle with the motor running. If I hold the flywheel firmlyl and depress the pedal it tries to move, but the tension dissipates as I hold the flywheel and then I can turn the flywheel by hand to check stitch length, etc. The motor pulley is about 2 inches.

But to the subject, the servo I am looking at is a 550 watt, adjustable from 0 to 3450 rpm, 110 volt rated at 3/4 hp. I think it is the same as the Family Sew 550s servo. Is that enough wattage to run the machine with out the reducer for a month or two, or is that underpowered? The speed reducer I am looking at has three pulleys -- I am not sure about the ratio.

[SARK9]

For anyone that actually *likes* using a droning clutch motor for stitch-at-a-time accuracy while doing artistic work on expensive materials, this certainly is a golden age, as one can happily harvest their fill from the rest of the Earth's refuse pits, and welcome. However, I don't think a random example of this temperamental tribe is something I would wish on an enthusiastic newcomer. Its really only an outdated piece of single-purpose factory cast-off, unless there are some really keen rites and incantations involved with their possession that I was never invited to see. I do know how to release the magic smoke on any of them: It stinks as well, but the infernal din finally stops.

-DC

[llucas]

As someone new to these machines, I would be surprised if you found your initiation into the archaic world of buzzing clutch motors something very enjoyable. Unless you really need to jump right into the super hard and thick materials right off the bat, and need a further challenge as you learn to precisely control your stitching, I too suggest getting the best servo you can afford *first*. Try to find a suitable model that comes with a pulley around 50mm.

There are also a pretty good number of DIY speed reducer designs that people have been kind enough to share here, so a quick search and a bit of reading may spark a cost saving idea or two that will serve well in the meanwhile.

Otherwise, you may find, as countless others have lamented, there are some very sound reasons that the boneyard pallets are piled high with discarded clutch motors across the width and breadth of this land.

-DC

Thanks for the heads-up on the shop built reducers. I'll do a search and see if I can find the posts describing them.

[llucas]

My Cowboy CB4500 is very similar to the Adler 205-370 machines. I have a Family Sew 550s servo motor with a 50mm pulley and a 3:1 speed reducer with three pulleys. As an experiment, I tried going directly from the motor to machine and it had a very hard time penetrating a quarter inch of bridle leather, at slow speed, without me manually turning the hand wheel to get it going. Servo motors produce much less torque at slower/startup speeds. Once under way, the motor was able to keep it sewing until I stopped applying power. This gets aggravating if you need both hands on the work from the get-go.

Reconnecting the speed reducer restored the full slow speed experience needed to start with both hands on the work.

I did own an Adler 204-374 flat bed walking foot machine a few years ago. It had a 3/4 hp, 1725 rpm clutch motor, with a 2" pulley, feeding a 2 pulley speed reducer, feeding the huge pulley on the machine. The top speed was 2.5 stitches per second and it penetrated anything I could fit under the foot. Controlling the clutch was a piece of cake for my foot and it feathered down to 1 stitch every 2 seconds.

Just my 2 cents

Wiz, thanks for the good information. As a total newbie this clutch motor has convinced me to pony up the money for a servo and speed reducer. With the good info I am receiving from men like you on this forum I might be able to tame this Beast enough to do some decent stitching -- hopefully, because I am sick of hand stitching, lol.

[Wizcrafts]

One complicating factor with the clutch motor on my machine: when the motor is powered up and sits idle, if I turn off the power and then without any power to the machine depress the pedal to turn the flywheel by hand the machine runs away with four or five stitches even though it is not powered up. It seems to spool up tension while sitting idle with the motor running. If I hold the flywheel firmlyl and depress the pedal it tries to move, but the tension dissipates as I hold the flywheel and then I can turn the flywheel by hand to check stitch length, etc. The motor pulley is about 2 inches.

But to the subject, the servo I am looking at is a 550 watt, adjustable from 0 to 3450 rpm, 110 volt rated at 3/4 hp. I think it is the same as the Family Sew 550s servo. Is that enough wattage to run the machine with out the reducer for a month or two, or is that underpowered? The speed reducer I am looking at has three pulleys -- I am not sure about the ratio.

That is the same setup I have. It was setup that way by Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. Other dealers may do the same things to machines they sell. As I said earlier tonight, my FS-550s motor alone had trouble driving the big machine from a dead stop into a double thickness of 10-12 oz bridle leather, at low speed settings. These motors have much less torque at slow speeds that clutch motors. The 3:1 speed reducer adds the torque that is missing to get the machine sewing without handwheeling it from a dead stop.

You noticed that your clutch motor continues turning the machine after you power it off. It is one of their foibles because they are so powerful. Servo motors have a tiny bit of power after you turn them off, but not more than one or two stitches, if it was set to a higher speed when you last ran it. Long time operators of machines with clutch motors learn to heel back hard on the floor pedal to lock the brake in place. The motor keeps turning but the machine doesn't. I heel back, raise the feet with the knee lever, pull the work out, cut the threads and move along. All the while, the motors keeps spinning until it simply runs of of go.

I think you will be very happy with a FS-550s motor and 3:1 reducer combo. Make sure the dealer supplies the proper set of v-belts. You need two belts of radically different lengths. I think my motor to big pulley on the reducer is about 38 inches, while the small reducer pulley to the machine is about 59 inches. Both are type 3L belts. Ask for the best welded belts they offer. Belts are made differently by different manufacturers. Some cheaper ones are welded out of alignment and will cause a thump once per revolution. This becomes a serious shake at higher speeds. An opened v-belt that lies perfectly flat on a flat table will usually run true.

[llucas]

Wiz, thanks for sharing your experience and practical wisdom. Most helpful.

[dikman]

Those clutch motors are actually very nicely made motors, well balanced and with excellent bearings. They also have a very hefty flywheel inside, which is why, when you turn them off, they will keep spinning for ages and can still turn over the machine if engaged (in other words, be very careful where you put your fingers!).

I have three servos, all the same brand, 2 x 550w and 1 x 750w. All of them stop dead when I take my foot off the pedal.

Edited February 11, 2016 by dikman

[llucas]

Thanks to all who contributed answers to my question. Taking in all your observations I think I will purchase the servo first (even if I need to assist it with the hand wheel) and then the speed reducer. Two dealers have told me it probably will not have enough torque without the speed reducer. But with my limited ability to stitch with the machine I suspect if I got the reducer first and used it for a while with the clutch motor I still would not be able to slow it down enough to do good work. As a novice, probably none of the options will work for me until I have both the servo and the reducer. Maybe I should sell my redundant Porter Cable router on craigslist instead of waiting, lol.

Edited February 11, 2016 by llucas

[TinkerTailor]

I have to admit, with the price of the reducer as an add on and what you get for it, I probably would have built my own if my machine did not come with one.

On my next machine, I have started to get ideas to clean up the underside of my table with one of these and a cogged flat belt to the motor.

I have found them for 30-50 bux in the past.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/DODGE-SPEED-REDUCER-5-1-RATIO-SHAFT-DRIVE-430-INCH-POUNDS-/161095311448?hash=item2582076058:g:7yAAAMXQzH9SHNHi

[llucas]

I have to admit, with the price of the reducer as an add on and what you get for it, I probably would have built my own if my machine did not come with one.

On my next machine, I have started to get ideas to clean up the underside of my table with one of these and a cogged flat belt to the motor.

I have found them for 30-50 bux in the past.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/DODGE-SPEED-REDUCER-5-1-RATIO-SHAFT-DRIVE-430-INCH-POUNDS-/161095311448?hash=item2582076058:g:7yAAAMXQzH9SHNHi

Wholesale for the reducer is about $135.00; the servo is $109.00. Odd that the motor is less that a pulley setup, but there you go. All my tools that would allow me to build a pulley setup are in storage at the moment. I am thinking I need to find the money and get it over with. Buy what is needed and only cry once.

[dikman]

The other option is to use a servo and fit a larger pulley to the machine itself. This will have the effect of slowing things down and retaining torque.

[Wizcrafts]

The other option is to use a servo and fit a larger pulley to the machine itself. This will have the effect of slowing things down and retaining torque.

This could be really expensive, as his machine is an Adler 205-370. It is what it is.

[llucas]

All of your answers and suggestions convinced me to break the monthly budget: I just ordered both the servo and the speed reducer along with new belts. It struck me that if I tried to make a diy reducer or buy different size pulleys for the machine itself I would be spending almost as much as the price of the commercial reducer. Plus, the comments and suggestions indicated I probably would not be happy with the lack of torque in the servo without the reducer and I felt like using a reducer with this old clutch motor would not be the best for me -- since I cannot sew well yet.

So, I bought what was needed so I would only cry once. I will sell that extra Porter Cable router on craigslist to save my budget. Thanks for all your help, it is very much appreciated.

Edited February 12, 2016 by llucas

[TinkerTailor]

Once you get it setup, the crying will stop when you see how tame your machine will be.

[dikman]

I had a look at the parts manual, Wiz, 'cos you got me curious. A bit hard to tell, but the wheel that the pulley is attached to (or is part of?) is certainly a bit more complex than other machines I've looked at! So my idea probably wouldn't work.

llucas, while it might be painful on the wallet, like TT said I reckon you'll love it once it's set up.

[llucas]

By the end of next week the Beast should be tamed -- hopefully. Thanks everyone. I will post follow-up when the installation and testing is complete.

[Colt W Knight]

You made the right call. You have a nice machine, making it work nicely for your purpose will increase your enjoyment and creativity