Wondering About The Fit

[Josh Ashman]

Technically I agree with most all of this. At the same time, based on my personal experience and in my opinion the "real world effect" is a whole lot of nothing. Yes, a pancake holster made completely even will pinch the sight when the "wings" are folded in. If you flex some curve into the wings when you mold the holster I think you mitigate it to some extent. Leather also stretches and compresses to an amazing degree. It will do so while you build with it and it will do so long after you're done making whatever it is you're making. 

I build my pancake holsters even and put some curve into them when I form them. When they are new they are tight, if they are on the belt on a narrow person they will be even tighter. Depending where they were cut from, the characteristics of the leather and how much coffee I had before I sewed the holster up I can generally shake the holster upside down with a loaded gun (not one in the chamber, no safety lectures please). After a few years of every day use they are much looser and need to come out of daily rotation 

The pictures below show a curved pancake evenly molded and formed in a slight curve. The 2nd pic is the same holster being moved upside down holding the real gun. And the 3rd pic is me with what used to be my EDC pistol and holster I built for it. It was tight when new and it loosened up over several years to the point that I no longer use it that much because it's a little loose. 

My 2 cents, which is worth exactly what it cost, is if you have any doubts about a holster pattern you want to try, build yourself one and wear it for a while then you'll know how that  design will work. All these discussions about how molded leather will behave down to the 1/16 and 1/32 don't take into account the very nature of what leather is. As an example take a 6" length of 1" wide strap cut from 8 oz. leather and a bowl of warm water. Dunk the leather in the water for a minute and you can turn that 6" length into a 6-1/2" length without any trouble. You can also turn it into a 5-1/2" length. You can also turn a straight cut strap into a curved strap. Work it a little and dunk some more and you can turn a slight curve into a semi circle, or even a full circle. 

Have a great day folks!

[carguy4471]

So....   Given the stretch-ability of leather, would it be safe to assume that when wet molding a 50/50 pancake, you could pre-stretch the front of the holster by bending it?  Thus possibly preventing the binding issues??

Question asked by a complete rookie so keep that in mind.  

[Josh Ashman]

Carguy, in my opinion, yes. I respect that others may have different answers. 

Based on my experience in building that exact type of holster and not having any trouble with binding, especially binding that got worse as the holster became more broken in. However, the best way for you to know for sure what you think about it is to build yourself a holster and see how it works for you. 

Josh

[JLSleather]

59 minutes ago, Josh Ashman said:

 if they are on the belt on a narrow person they will be even tighter... After a few years of every day use they are much looser and need to come out of daily rotation 

...and it loosened up over several years to the point that I no longer use it that much because it's a little loose. 

Up front -- I do pay attention when Josh posts something.  I got no problem standin' in the middle of main street and telling folks if you need some well-made leather, you might call Josh (which I have done as recently as last week).  Never met the guy --- this is BECAUSE OF THE WORK he presents.

Now to include the comments here from Josh AND from Duane... it's true that leather has a 'stretch-ability'.  Obviously.  And some forming of the leather in the making is kinda the point of holster making.  In fact, if you make the holster tight, and then form (stretch) it around (so that the front and channel area is the part doing the stretching) then you are - of a sort - making a holster slightly longer on the "face" side (by stretching the outer but not the inner).

But the bind I'm referring to comes more from the leather's tendency not to contract back.  I mean, if it 'came back' then there'd be no reason for it to get loose and need replacing   The point here, before it became a crazed rant (somehow  ) was to say that a "pancake" holster (what I sometimes call a '50/50') does not fit a small guy and a big guy the same way - and a dowel shoved down the front won't change that.

Somebody probably busy laying out [yet another] video about this by now .  But the idea is a simple one.  Take a belt, or anything else with two layers of leather.  Bend it 20° -- no problem. Bend it 45°, now it's wrinkling on the inside (the outside is stretching).. because the leather is being compressed and has nowhere to go (the outside layer prevents it from moving out of the way of the force).  Now, when you bend it back the other way to straight, the grain is disturbed on the OUTside, because it's now been stretched longer than before (not so good at "snapping back").

This may be a better pic.  This was made for a Glock 43.. fit a guy with a 38" waist like a glove.  But when the guy with the 30" waist used it... ya git this here...

This obviously had been made with a "sight channel", but when 'cranked' on a slim boy's waist, the channel collapsed on teh site, actually causing the problem it was intended to solve.

Again, it fit his buddy (38") just fine.

[carguy4471]

So the biggest question, what are the methods used by the many established and great holster gurus here to dodge the "bind" when making a 50/50 pancake holster?

I know first hand the issue, one of my first holsters turned into a vice when worn with a belt.  It was not letting go.  Had to insert some material on the side of the slide and re-moisten the holster to stretch it a bit.  Salvaged it, turned out ok-ish.  Since then I've simply cranked the front and back of the holster down (bent them) while wet to stretch the outside panel, in doing so it would lose some definition and depression in the trigger guard so they need to be gone over while stretching the panel while wet to maintain definition.  

I admit I have no earthly idea if that's the correct way or if it was absolutely daft.  It did however work.  The holsters since tighten up a bit on a belt, but do not turn into a vise.

I'd be delighted to hear how others prevent the "vise" but maintain good retention on a belt.   Since I use a poor mans vacuum press I was thinking about making a curved jig for the backside of the holster.

[JLSleather]

1 minute ago, carguy4471 said:

I was thinking about making a curved jig for the backside of the holster.

See, now yer on to sumthin' there.  If it's already curved, then curving it won't harm nuthin' - that is the idea.  This can be done by moving teh slots out wider from the firearm (the most common, I think), or better yet by shortening the inside panel so you don't get that 'buckle', or by lengthening the outside panel so it 'forms', instead of "crushes".. 

[carguy4471]

My first thought was to thread a belt and wrap it around my thigh while boning the holster, then tossing it into the vacuum again.  It seemed to work ok-ish.  I certainly didn't get the vice effect.  I think though I am going to try adding just a wee bit to the length to the outside panel and see how that goes.  If I use the same pattern on the back and effectively put the added length in between the center stitch lines on the outside panel, that should make it simple.  

[JLSleather]

Won't that make it loose?

I mean, if it fits, and then you add, that sounds like "loose"   BUT, if a guy added to the front, and took from teh back, the same amount....  see kin i find a picture... or make one

Edited March 8, 2017 by JLSleather

[billybopp]

It seems to me that if the customer is ordering holster and belt, easy peasy.  If you've met the customer, not all that hard to make a good estimate.  But how do you tactfully ask an online or phone customer "Just how fat are you, anyway?" ... Particularly if you're dealing with a female customer? 

[carguy4471]

1 hour ago, JLSleather said:

Won't that make it loose?

I mean, if it fits, and then you add, that sounds like "loose"   BUT, if a guy added to the front, and took from teh back, the same amount....  see kin i find a picture... or make one

I see what you're saying here.  But if you add to the front and leave the back alone, would the front just "mold" more of the firearm when you wet form it??  I'm asking because I really have no clue.  I'm just guessing.