URGENT HELP - Which edge paint polishing/buffing/brushing/sanding machine to use??

[johnnywalks]

Have you try cloth only wheel? I was told by the guys from Mando FR even cloth with one leather is too harsh for final finish. I have a dremel with muslin cloth only and they do work but the rpm is too quick and i prefer to be "hands free" holding the leather. Besides, the dremel cloth wheel is too small to do quick runs for me. i just need this setup for small production runs and longer edges and of course build a better knowledge towards leather goods production.

Italian mades like Omac, Ginev and German Sieck are all making this edge polishing machines for production and i am sure they exist for a good reason. 

Right about now i do need an opinion on the grub screws on the adapters before i can try it out! lol.

And after solving the adapter issue I'll have to think about how to mount my C face motor vertical and boxed up just enough to be on a table as space is limited for me... sighs. Not giving up tho! 

 

 

 

[johnnywalks]

On 8 June 2016 at 3:19 PM, Lobo said:

I was in the business from 1972 until retirement in 2015, last 8-1/2 years were full time. Started out with very little money to spend so I learned to adapt and modify tools to meet my needs without much investment.

For sanding edges I used drum sanders in various sizes chucked into a bench top drill press. I sanded while the leather was damp, which allows the leather fibers to fall to the bench rather than filling the air with dust. Typical holster or belt takes about 2 to 3 minutes. Sanding sleeves for the drum sanders cost less than $1 each and will do hundreds of holsters and belts.

For edge burnishing I used dye on the edges, then rubbed on a mixture of 50% beeswax and 50% paraffin wax, then burnished using a hard felt polishing wheel chucked into the drill press (about 1700RPM). Typical holster or belt takes about 3 minutes. Waxes cost about $2 per pound, which will do many hundreds of products. Felt polishing wheels cost about $1 to $2 each (depending on size), and each will do 200 to 300 holsters and belts.

Friction from the felt polishing wheel polishes the edges while also melting the wax and forcing it into the leather fibers at the edges. Result is a well sealed edge with high gloss polished surface, stands up well to use. Far superior to edge painting.

Waxes can be combined by placing equal amounts into a heavy duty freezer bag, then suspending the bag in a large pot of boiling water, then pouring the mixed wax into molds (I used muffin pans, producing cakes of about 2 oz. weight). Later on I found a nice lady who makes candles, and she produced my wax mixture in her machine, charging me $20 for 20 lbs (which was probably a 5 year supply in my shop).

Watch the sales at Harbor Freight and you can pick up light-duty bench top drill presses for about $60 each. I found that they last about 2-3 years in production (about 4000-6000 holsters, belts, etc). The shaft bearings eventually wear out because pressure has been applied from the sides rather than in line with the shaft, as a drill press is designed to function. When that happened I just bought another (actually I usually had a back up sitting new in its box ready to set up and continue production). You might prefer to pay more for a heavy-duty drill press from other sources.

So there you are. Less than $100 and you can expect proven professional results with minimum time and effort.

Hope to learn more from you, thank you for sharing your knowledge Lobo! Sadly the fashion world at the moment is about rather keen on chrome tan leather with edge paint matte and smooth finish. In fact, the smoother the leather, the smoother the edge "the better". lol. However i think the Veg tan wax technique is making it's comeback slowly.  

Do you think the grub screws will work fin on the keyway slot of my motor shaft?

 

[RockyAussie]

Yes The grub screws can work but make sure the hole to shaft is quite a firm fit. The machine is helpful for doing a lot but not in my experience for finishing of on the edge paints. Wax type finishing yes.Motors like this normally come with foot attachments to enable bolting down. By the picture below you should see I use a lot of this edging for its strength and stretch properties.The machine shown is another of my own that I have built due to other machines not being suitable to the horn-back crocodile structure. 

[WoodsideCo]

On 6/22/2016 at 8:01 PM, RockyAussie said:

Hi Johnnywalks, I am sorry that I had not read your entire post on this before. Now I think I see what you are trying to do. I wish I knew what other machinery you have, but what you have here as far as my judgement goes will be fine to do an edge grinding machine. I have attached pics to show how I have made something similar. Mine my look rough but I can move the whole motor up and down to apply pressure in the best place easily.Problem though is that using these type of edge paints in my experience is not much help with these type of wheels other than the 80 grit rubberized wheel. If you get the leather too smooth and shiny the paint will peel of easily. I use these edgings every day and you have to remember that the leather in the first instance needs to be sanded inward toward the middle or the pressure will flair your edges out. After I have finished my bevel sanding I  then sometimes mostly on thicker materials like my belts use the grinder to nicely round out the shape. The horsepower of your motor would not be much use for polishing and you would be better to look for about a 2 hp motor for that. I'll cover that in a later post.This motor has a receiving hole that you can make use of the thread. Therefor you only need a flange made up to neatly go over this shaft and shaped a bit like mine shown. Get an engineering shop to lathe it for you and make sure the height allows you to put in the screw and put pressure down.No grub screws needed. One direction it will want to undo so make sure that switch can not be used in the wrong direction.Note the leather piece made up to stop grit getting down into the bearings.If you don't have a small belt sander grinder set up I would be getting this first.The pics showing the soldering iron (light dimmer switch)and the smooth sanding pad and the grey scotch brite material which is the smoothest are some of the most useful tools you could ever want for these type of edging. The workhorse with self made attachments is for doing belt lengths. DAM I hope this is of help.

RockyAussie- Are those wheels you have rigged up to your bench "AP Burnishing wheels"? Campbell Randall sells a few buffing, grinding, polishing wheels that look identical here in the US. I believe they are intended for a few different systems. Ive actually been going back and forth with buying this system http://www.campbell-randall.com/wp-content/uploads/VSB1.pdf   which takes those style wheels. I actually have plans sketched out for a very similar bench to accept the wheels without buying the entire vsb system.  I've been talking with a buddy of mine who is a machinist to try to tackle a few ideas for edge finishing machinery as I have trouble convincing myself that paying the amount of money some of these manufacturers want is worth it for where I am in production. Maybe in the future, but cant quite justify it yet. I really dig that belt edge painting system you made! I wonder how much money you saved by building yours yourself as opposed to buying something like this http://www.campbell-randall.com/machines/leather-goods-machines/edge-painting-machine/model-991pa-vertical-belt-painting-machine/ or the like. I love seeing guys rigging things together like that either for specific needs that available machinery can't meet or the old "I think I could build that" thought. Good stuff brotha

 

[RockyAussie]

Hi Woodside Co,

Yes they would be the same type of wheels but mine are from Italy. I have found it a big advantage being able to move the whole grinder up and down to get the groove to pressure exactly. Also by having the extra table room at front allows me to put in a swiveling pressure pusher so to speak. This allows a more even pressure than just pressing by hand and when you have to 100 belts at a time like me it sure saves the fingers. Having the variable speed would be an advantage at times I think. .Be careful not to lathe up your 20mm piece until after you have all the wheels you want to use as they are not all quite the same size.As for belt edging machine I made that about 20 years ago before for I stated using Auto Cad for all my drawing. Basically it has a chain inside that by using a jockey wheel and a spring tensioner the back side of the chain allows the wheels to spin in the directions opposite. That was the hardest part to work out. Having a variable speed here would be Bull S. The adjustable wipers are not brushes like some have,as I found they do not give an even enough thickness to the edging and crocodile stuff has to be extra precise in the finished quality.You need a single edger for doing the tips with any finesse. Cost of materials without the motor and gearbox about $100 to $150au and box and motor I would guess about $250 approx. I am happy to give a few measurement and internal pics etc but if you want Cad drawings and fuller instructions I'd need a week and would like $100 in my bank for the time.(The CAD stuff would only be to you personally) You would need a good size drill press or mill if you have it,and a good competent welder as the back and front plates have to be dead square and in line with each other. Also a long reamer for the sintered bronze bushes front to back. (about 100mm spacing) Hope that helps and let me know if you want to know more. Regards Brian

[johnnywalks]

16 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Yes The grub screws can work but make sure the hole to shaft is quite a firm fit. The machine is helpful for doing a lot but not in my experience for finishing of on the edge paints. Wax type finishing yes.Motors like this normally come with foot attachments to enable bolting down. By the picture below you should see I use a lot of this edging for its strength and stretch properties.The machine shown is another of my own that I have built due to other machines not being suitable to the horn-back crocodile structure. 

Wow, impressive! Thanks for sharing your knowledge so far. Unfortunately my motor is a c face and it didn't come with any foot flange for mounting. Now i have to figure that out, either with some steel bracket or get someone to fabricate a steel frame to fit the motor vertical. 

20mm inside diameter wheel is another issue, i can get someone to lathe the correct threaded bolt arbor for me, wonder what the costs are for such work in UK. My other consideration is using tapered end arbor, will they work? 

http://www.metalpolishingsupplies.co.uk/bench-grinder-spindle-adapter-5-8-16mm-right-hand-side/

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by johnnywalks

[RockyAussie]

An L shape about 1/4" thick minimum with little corner supports can be adapted on to the flange area and attached by the 4 Allen heads OK. There are a few things you can make use of with the tapered spindle but for under $50.00 to $100.00au here a good bench grinder would be an easier option giving a more useful horsepower rating.

[WoodsideCo]

Rocky- I dont do enough big runs of belts to justify building the belt edge painter, maybe a single edger though. What did you end up using for the actual paint roller wheels on that machine?

[cjmt]

Id be interested to know the Italian source of the polishing and sanding wheels if their owner didnt mind sharing?

[RockyAussie]

Hi WoodsideCo, The wheels are aluminum about 90mm dia and 23mm thick with knurling on the paint edge. The brass plates attached to the paint buckets are adjustable to allow varience of the paint thickness.These are held in place on stainless shafts with nuts which I undo for cleaning up purposes. Single edge machines are not all that expensive and a lot more available so I have not bothered to make one up before.The only thing I have done on single edge machines is to replace the brushes with an aluminum wiper instead. This makes it way easier to clean up and and get better control of the paint thickness.
I will get some pics done and send later today.

[RockyAussie]

Hi Cjmt, Texon Australia obtained them for me from Italy. If you check OMAC and GALLI S.p.a.you should have some luck. If  you want to see the biggest range of leather working gear in your life see this link and download the catalogue http://www.tancompany.com/en/index.html

[RockyAussie]

Hi WoodsideCo again, please see attached pics of single edge machine with my modifications. With the aluminum wiper I don't need to take it off to clean it and a wet paper towel work fine to just wipe off any paint.This keeps a more even layer of paint up and down the shaft.Shown in my hand is the type of brush the machine would normally be supplied with.

[Mike516]

On 6/23/2016 at 11:40 PM, RockyAussie said:

Yes The grub screws can work but make sure the hole to shaft is quite a firm fit. The machine is helpful for doing a lot but not in my experience for finishing of on the edge paints. Wax type finishing yes.Motors like this normally come with foot attachments to enable bolting down. By the picture below you should see I use a lot of this edging for its strength and stretch properties.The machine shown is another of my own that I have built due to other machines not being suitable to the horn-back crocodile structure. 

Rocky, I like the drying rack. Is that a bakers cookie rack or something you made?

I was thinking about making or buying something similar. Do you find it takes them longer to dry stacked like that?

[cjmt]

22 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Hi Cjmt, Texon Australia obtained them for me from Italy. If you check OMAC and GALLI S.p.a.you should have some luck. If  you want to see the biggest range of leather working gear in your life see this link and download the catalogue http://www.tancompany.com/en/index.html

Interesting catalogue, thank you!

[RockyAussie]

3 hours ago, Mike516 said:

Rocky, I like the drying rack. Is that a bakers cookie rack or something you made?

I was thinking about making or buying something similar. Do you find it takes them longer to dry stacked like that?

 

[RockyAussie]

Hi Mike 516, No for a lot of my production I have made up Trays that start as 8'x4' plywood and cut into 4 pieces making them 4'x2' then they get a 19mm or 3/4" quad border glue and attached to the top of each ply. I use the same trays for knife racking and general stacking of product pieces in processing.I will send some example pics this afternoon. When running the belts through I take from 1 trolley on the left and stack and build onto a right trolley. They normally take about 1/2 hr to dry between runs so I prefer to do runs of 50 to 100 at a time.

[RockyAussie]

Hi Mike please see attached pics of various ways I use the trays I have made up.

[Mike516]

Excellent use of space. I don't have nearly the production of this, but I do find collars laying everywhere to dry, and I'm constantly moving them still tacky from one spot to another when I need room. It's quite the comedy act. This gives me some great ideas on getting more organized and better situated in my small shop, thank you so much.