English point ...

[JLSleather]

Okay, I'm not seeing it.  What exactly is "english point"?  We see strap end cutter punches, carving designs, templates.. all saying "english point" but not a word about just what that is.  Yes, I know people's tendency to be 'random', but that's too much like that "close enough" attitude I don't have

So, is there a 'formula' for "EP"?  

[Martyn]

I *think* it's two intersecting catenary curves (the curve you get when you hang a chain), or a pointed parabolic arch.

... a pretty complex shape.

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Martyn

[JLSleather]

Yeah, must be -- I don't even remember that symbol on teh far left (and throughout) - if I ever used it.

Still, looks like an equilateral triangle would be inscribed, so no need to do the math (WOOHOO).  Set a compass to the width of the strap, draw an arc.  Move to other side, draw same arc.  Wah-Lah ..

Not sure why different punch makers use different shapes, but maybe I just make my own shape and don't worry a bout thing1 and thing2

 

 

[Martyn]

5 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Still, looks like an equilateral triangle would be inscribed, so no need to do the math (WOOHOO).  Set a compass to the width of the strap, draw an arc.  Move to other side, draw same arc.  Wah-Lah ..

I dont think it's that simple. I think the shape of the curve changes within the arc. The parabolic curve is close to, but not quite the same as a catenary curve and I think the EP is a pointed catenary - at least as far as I can tell. I'm not sure if there is actually any kind of standard for it though, it just seems to me that most of what is called an EP, looks most like a pointed catenary to my hyper-accurate, mark I eyeball.

[JLSleather]

Well,

But if the distance across the bottom and the diagonal distance up the right side are the same, then by definition of a triangle, the third side would be the same.  And an arc which passes through BOTH might as well be a radius (of a circle).  If you're spanning 100 feet (or designing the St Louis arch) then you wouldn't 'fudge' the math, but in 1 1/2" (38 mm to you) the burnisher will eliminate that anyway

But yeah, that was my question -- if there was A shape that was correct, or if "english point" is just a generally pointy thingie.

 

[billybopp]

I have a couple of English Point punches in different sizes from different makers, and they are shaped slightly differently when compared side by side, so I don't think there is any exact definition of the shape.  As belt end punches are pretty expensive, I only have the sizes that I use most, but can use a larger one for a slightly smaller strap if needed, with a little hand cutting to help the transition to the side look a bit more smooth.  When I need a drastically different size, I mark both edges of the belt straight across and then use a compass scribe to mark the curves to the tip.  It's close enough to look good, anyway!   There are other fairly inexpensive tools available for marking your cuts such as this one.  Also, gmace on here posted a quick little video about making an English Point end freehanded and by eye.  I'd have to say, tho, that his hand and eye are probably more accurate than mine.  I'll stick to punches and marking!!

Bill

[JLSleather]

Yeah, I got templates for cutting -- never was big on those "end punches".  But I want to have dies made for tapered billets and ranger belts, so IF there was a "right" point I'd have 'er done that way.

I'll just lay out something that looks good.  By the time you narrow the strap ends, point the tip, cut the radius where the narrows are -- two ends of all that -- a die that 'clicks' it done looks pretty sweet.

 

 

[billybopp]

No doubt, if you're making a bunch a die is the way to go ... but I don't make a bunch of ... well anything!

 

Bill

[JLSleather]

I learn the hard way apparently. Hand cut the first 5000 or so and THEN have dies ordered

 

[plinkercases]

Just saw these in the latest Tandy flyer and think they are new.

https://www.tandyleather.com/en/search/?sSearch=strap end template

 

 

 

[plinkercases]

Also looks like this shape perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuleaux_triangle

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by plinkercases

[Martyn]

10 hours ago, plinkercases said:

Also looks like this shape perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuleaux_triangle

 

Yeah, that's the shape that JLS was suggesting, just an arc based on an equilateral triangle, but it's not a parabola or catenary. I might be splitting hairs, but it doesnt look quite right to my eye. It's easy to do though and probably close enough that I doubt anybody would pick up on it or complain.

[Bob Blea]

I think I could use that template.  I'll need to check that out next time I'm in.

[Boriqua]

I bought this set for 9.99 shipped on ebay almost a year ago

I measure the center of my belt at the edge I want to cut and pick a curve that makes me feel good from my 10 dollar set and clip one half side and then I flip it and cut the other side. Comes out great. Dont know how I ever lived without these and they are great for doing more complex curves when chained together and clipping corners

[Martyn]

50 minutes ago, Boriqua said:

I bought this set for 9.99 shipped on ebay almost a year ago

That's a really good idea. Can you remember the brand or do you have a link?

Edited June 29, 2016 by Martyn

[Boriqua]

Hey Martyn

The place I got them from sells a bunch of household goods and I checked but they dont seem to have them anymore but I did a "similar items" search and this is what came up. Even at 20 dollars its a good deal. I had to pass a file real quick on them but they have been indispensable time savers. I used to mark corners with a coin and then cut them out with a razor blade but they never really looked great and then I would sand them for 5 minutes. With these tools one bang in each corner and they are all even and wonderful and they work great on belt ends!

hope this helps

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Leather+Craft+Belt+Strap+Wallet+Bag+End+Arc-shaped+Punch+Leather+Handwork+5+Size&_id=121171114229&&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2658

 

opps I should mention though it will be obvious .. they have some that are a full arch and ones that are just a curve. I bought the curved ones because I thought they would be more versatile but at that price I may get a set of the arched ones as well. The curved set let me do the little bit of detail like on the flap of the firestone on the sheath lickity split. I could have traced and cut out the shape but I have never had resounding success making it all look somewhat even.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Boriqua

[JLSleather]

Well, actually I was thinking about a die to hit all of this in one shot ...

[plinkercases]

12 hours ago, Martyn said:

Yeah, that's the shape that JLS was suggesting, just an arc based on an equilateral triangle, but it's not a parabola or catenary. I might be splitting hairs, but it doesnt look quite right to my eye. It's easy to do though and probably close enough that I doubt anybody would pick up on it or complain.

Actually I don't think this is exactly really what JLS suggested. If I got his suggestion right. The arc radius is not equal to the width of the belt but is a segment of a much larger arc from three larger cycles centered outside the pattern Think Venn diagram where three larger circles over lap.

JLS I am having a tool and die friend make a template just like that (not a die) for just than and from the buckle end. "English-ish" point and round as well. If you are getting a die made why not get the holes as well or is that so you can place them yourself to length once the belt is tooled and stretched a bit?

And as for the partial arc punch set I have that sitting in my shopping cart and glad to here that for 10 bucks they are worth it. I just got paid so I can check them out tomorrow

 

[JLSleather]

Nah, I don't want the holes in it until AFTER it's tooled (the ones that are tooled).  I just want the ends cut quickly and cleanly.  Plus, on a narrow strap, punching the outer edge and the holes at the same time could certainly result in binding - which in turn can "booger" the grain of the leather.  It "could" be done, but you'd likely want a stripper to hold the leather down while the punches back out.  I mean a spring loaded presser plate, not the girl with no clothes

Plus, you'd likely want it made with replaceable punches, too.  And I like OVAL belt holes, not round ones, meaning that the punches would have to be aligned somehow...

As you can see, that could get complicated ... !

 

[plinkercases]

yup good points all round.. not sure what's wrong with having a stripper in the shop though... just to have an extra set of hands to hold down the leather when needed.

[Colt W Knight]

12 hours ago, plinkercases said:

yup good points all round.. not sure what's wrong with having a stripper in the shop though... just to have an extra set of hands to hold down the leather when needed.

The problem is all the glitter they leave behind.

 

[plinkercases]

Thanks for the end of week chuckle.

[JLSleather]

The more strippers I install, the less work I get done 

[plinkercases]

Some models work on the floor and there are others that you sit on you lap but If you put them up on a table then you have more floor space  and ability to move around the shop. That may improve productivity... or not....

[Red Bear Haraldsson]

Well, you wouldn't want to put them on a narrow table because they might fall, so you get a wider table to accommodate them (and your work, naturally), but now you cannot reach the tools on the back wall... so they need to bend over to get and then hand you your tools. That has to increase productivity, because you have a helper! Sounds like a win to me...