Contrary to my expectations

[graywolf]

OK, still thinking about buying triple feed machine, but I was kind of wondering about an old straight stitch home machine I have.

I stopped by the only upholstery shop still open here in town, and begged some scrap vinyl to try it with. The vinyl was left over from a restaurant redo, fairly heavy stuff. The machine is an old White Fair Lady (circa 1964) 763, oscillating hook, 1.3amp motor. Singer 15 type accessories. So called heavy duty nylon upholstery thread (Coats & Clark, about #69) from Walmart. Two to four layers of the vinyl. Seems to work okay with both a 14 or 16 needle. No leather scraps or needles, at the moment, to try.

So, what is contrary about this? Well, it zips through the heavy vinyl like it was warm butter, and it seems to feed okay. The only thing I had to do was loosen the bobbin tension about a turn and turn the top tension all the way up, from what sews properly with the usual medium weight cloth and regular sewing thread.

So, why do I need a $1200 machine? What am I missing here? (Auto upholstery, canvas tents, and not too heavy leather, is the intended use.)

[graywolf]

Oops! Follow up.

Forgot to mention my expectations. I figured the old White could sew the material, but I expected it to be straining and I expected feeding problems. I had neither of those problems.

[Colt W Knight]

I had an old Singer 66 that would zip through Vinyl, but give it 2 layers of veg tan leather, and all hell broke loose.

 

 

 

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, graywolf said:

Oops! Follow up.

Forgot to mention my expectations. I figured the old White could sew the material, but I expected it to be straining and I expected feeding problems. I had neither of those problems.

Been there and done that!

It isn't a case of sewing machine X can or can't "sew" vinyl or leather. It is a matter of how efficiently it does the job. This includes more than just penetrating the material with a thin needle and thin thread and moving it along for the next stitch. I routinely demonstrate old iron Singer and White Rotary sewing machines I have for sale sewing scrap leather and vinyl. Almost any sewing machine can move a small cut of any material that fits under the foot. But, try sewing a tarp, or banner, or large seat cover on these bottom feeders and they quickly bog down and sew into the same hole. It takes a dual or triple feed walking foot machine to properly transport heavy or long sections of vinyl and get a long stitch length.

For instance, I have for sale a Singer Model 27 that can sew into 8 ounces of bridle leather, with #69 thread and just about get close to 5 stitches per inch. But, I wouldn't expect it to sew riding chaps, or tarps/awnings, or a banner, or a holster. Rather, I use a long body compound feed walking foot machine for these jobs. While the old #27 maxes out with #69 thread, the walking foot is just coming into its own with that thread. It can transport a 14 foot tent, at 4 stitches per inch, with #92 thread, at up to 2000 stitches per minute, or faster. It makes sewing banners, tarps and seat covers a lot faster than on a slower speed machine that might max out at 600 to 800 stitches per minute.

Let's move along to the motors and drive belts. The old Singer machines have a 13" to 14" belt that goes from a teensie motor that consumes about 100 watts, plus or minus, to the flywheel pulley that's about 3.5 inches in diameter. They maybe put out 1/10th of a horsepower. Most of the older motors on those machines didn't even put out that much. A Featherweight motor is only rated at 0.4 amps/44 watts. Beautiful, light weight machine, but totally gutless for anything heavier than pieces of quilts. I put a 1 amp motor on the old 27, so it can penetrate small pieces of bridle leather without handwheeling it to start.

The Singer machines are able to drive pretty hard because of the bobbin winder clutch on the handwheel. As long as you tighten it all the way down, there is no slippage, unless the belt itself slips (you can tighten the belt). But, the old White and Kenmore Rotary machines are driven by a tiny rubber wheel on the motor shaft. This thingy is about 3/4 inch diameter. The motor is spring loaded and pushes the rubber wheel against the hand wheel to drive the machine. It doesn't take very much back pressure from the material to cause this setup to slip. The Rotary machines are best limited to cloth, which has very little resistance.

[brmax]

You found the right machine, as there is a lot of nostalgia and a cool factor fixing some of these machines and seeing what they can do for us. Just keep stitchin, if it works for the projects you want great if not just change projects.

good day

Floyd

[graywolf]

Well, Wiz, you answer some of my questions, like how would it handle a 20-30 foot long seam? But on the other hand can a triple feed machine do that without 8+ foot long tables, which I do not have room for anyway? Of course, smaller panels pieced together are a possibility, if not the best method.

One has to figure out the tradeoffs for anything one does. If one is doing commercial sewing one needs the equipment that will do the jobs needed to do, and spares for the more common jobs. No question about that. On the other hand, a hobbyist has to justify the expense, although if you have enough income that is easy. You just say, "I want it". However, with limited income that is more difficult.

I have the White which I bought long ago on a whim (it was cute), and a Singer 750 which came with the sewing table I bought for a different sewing machine, but only needed a new rubber feed dog to put back into first class shape; so it became my garment machine (The other sewing machines are finally gone, given away because no one seemed willing to pay for a restored older machine).  The 750 does about everything a mechanical sewing machine can do. Straight stitch, zig-zag, lockstitch, chainstitch, embroidery, even basic overlock. I have always wanted a Singer 20U, but I cannot justify one as its only advantage over the 750 is speed and durability, neither of which are all that important for the amount of sewing I do, and they cannot do a lot oft the things the 750 can.

I also have long wanted a somewhat heavy duty, not like you serious leather workers need, for the things I cannot do with with the 750. Needing some upholstery work on the convertible and wanting an all weather tent, it suddenly looks like the cost savings of doing those myself, may justify that triple feed machine. (For those who do not know, canvas tents run $500 and up, way up. Replacing  a couple of damaged panels on the drivers seat of the car will run a few hundred, and of course any car guy would like to have a custom interior. So, if I actually use the thing I can justify it, but I can not justify it as something to just add to the clutter of the apartment.

However, the experiment with the old White Fair Lady confuses me, because it flies in the face of what I have been told and read. How much truth, and how much unfounded opinion, are with dealing with here?

I guess that in the end we all have to do our own experiments to find out.

[Colt W Knight]

Grab yourself some upholstery material of choice, and try to sew belt size mock up piece or a 18" square. It is heart breaking when the straight stitch machine quits feeding halfway through a real projects and the stitch length goes from 5 SPI to infinite. That is why I bought my walking foot machine. I could get my straight stitch to work on short pieces or test pieces, but things would always screw up on my actual work piece.

 

[dikman]

5 hours ago, graywolf said:

I guess that in the end we all have to do our own experiments to find out.

That pretty well sums it up. Sometimes things can be done using a machine that, in theory, shouldn't work. For a hobbyist it may be all that's needed, BUT for leatherwork (particularly heavier stuff) you can't beat a compound feed walking foot. Bottom line is that if what you've got works for you that's all that matters.

[Tejas]

11 hours ago, graywolf said:

how would it handle a 20-30 foot long seam? But on the other hand can a triple feed machine do that without 8+ foot long tables

I sew in a quite small room, and have four 4' x 2' fold-up, slick-top tables from Costco that when not in use are stored between the wall and the sewing table. The fold-up tables can be arrayed in various configurations in front of or behind the sewing table.

The longest run I've sewed is replacing a zipper in a 50' jib cover -- four passes, two for each side of the zipper. I used a single fold-table beside me nested up against the sewing table on which the cover was layered in a stack and let the cover fall on the floor in front of the machine. It was necessary to ease the fabric forward, but there was no need to push or pull the material, the compound-feed pulled the material through.

There is room for using only one table in the sewing room, and I have moved the machine temporarily to another room and used more tables to sew bigger, heavier projects such as replacing the UV panel on the same jib.

[Wizcrafts]

Graywolf;

Since you plan to only sew vinyl and your space and budget is limited, you might want to look into the Sailrite portable dual feed walking foot machines. There are two types: straight stitch and zig-zag. If you don't need zig-zag, you will save a few hundred bucks. The LSZ-1 is their lower priced model, at about $749.. You set the machine on the floor or on a table, as needed. It has top and bottom feed, with aggressive teeth to move vinyl along, but hold it firmly between stitches.

Sailrite is now producing and shipping their 3rd generation of portables, with beefed up components that were wearing out prematurely on previous models. There are a couple of upgrade packages they offer, like the Monster II wheel, or models in a carrying case, or bias tape folders and edge guides. The bobbins are a standard Class 15, as is used in hundreds of domestic and industrial sewing machines. They hold plenty of #69 bonded thread, which should be fine for your vinyl projects.

Note, I only recommend these machines for vinyl, not leather. Also, I do not recommend any of the cheaper Chinese knockoffs under any circumstance.

The next step up would be the new Consew P-1206RB, which costs just under a thousand dollars, from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. It has triple feed and comes on a 4' x 20" industrial table, with a Family Sew servo motor. Most shops can accommodate a 4 foot table. I had two in the expando of my trailer home until I moved them into my rented shop. They only stitch out 20 inches. Allowing a couple inches for material to flow over the back still keeps the table under 2 feet away from the wall.

[graywolf]

Well, Wiz, the Consew 1250 is my bottom choice, for the $250 difference over the Sailrite, as long as you are not storing it on a 30' sailboat, it seems the way to go. But then, another $200, or so, gets me a 206 which is what half the auto trim shops in the country use. Of course, that kind of justification can go on forever, in my web travels I saw a really nice machine for only $24.000 the other day (What would someone use a 12 needle, 24 thread sewing machine for?).

Actually, I see a machine on eBay I would bid on in a New York Minute, if it was not 700 miles away, while I am having trouble getting my car fixed (After waiting 2 weeks to get it looked at they said they would not even consider doing the job. Now another week to get it into another shop.), I even checked on the cost of renting a trailer down there to bring it back on. Sigh!

 

Tejas,

Thanks for the several small tables idea. Might just work for me.

[Colt W Knight]

I have Consew 206 that is about 40 years old,and it is a bad cat for sure.

 

[graywolf]

Rereading, some of the interesting threads here, I see where many argue that a home machine is a good substitute for the real thing. I do not what anyone to think I am saying that!

I was just amazed that the little White can do more than I thought it was capable of. Mostly, I had been using it to sew canvas utility bags for audio and photo gear, nothing fancy or pretty about them.

[graywolf]

And a follow up. Just got in some leather needles for the little White.

Tried 2 layers of 3oz, Machine stalled. Will go through 1 layer with a bit of help from my hand. So it looks like my current project will have to be hand sewn.

Remember, from my first post that this machine goes through upholstery vinyl like it is nothing.

This is sad, because my car has been eating money, and I hoped that the White would do for my purely, and not real heavy duty, hobby needs for awhile. SIGH!

[jo06]

I have a old singer 66 that I have been using to sew on 8oz leather belt ends.  It's slow going but gets the job done.  As I am expanding my business I am looking into buying a consew 206RB-5 used or new.  Any thoughts?  I just need to sew on leather belt ends but need to have the capability to reverse the machine to be able to tack down the stiches and be able to go slow at certain points.  I am a small business owner just starting up my business.  The local cobblers leave feed marks on the belt ends , thus the reason I have been using my old singer.

[Wizcrafts]

Out of 6 domestic machines I have for sale, only one can really sew through 8 ounces of leather on its own. That happens to be a - wait for it - 1902 Singer Model 27. I have demo'd the machine sewing #69 bonded nylon thread into 8-9 ounces of bridle leather, as well as 2 layers of 4 ounce suede split. It starts sewing on its own and continues, at slow or fast speed, until I back off the pedal. All the rest of the old machines need to be hand wheeled to start sewing into more than 4-5 ozs.

 

[Ferg]

WIZ,

I hope your rented shop is bigger than the trailer. Otherwise you wouldn't have room for all those Domestics. LOL

Ferg

[Wizcrafts]

5 hours ago, Ferg said:

WIZ,

I hope your rented shop is bigger than the trailer. Otherwise you wouldn't have room for all those Domestics. LOL

Ferg

Nope. The shop is under 600 square feet. The trailer is 890 square feet.

[graywolf]

On 8/13/2016 at 10:57 AM, Wizcrafts said:

Out of 6 domestic machines I have for sale, only one can really sew through 8 ounces of leather on its own. That happens to be a - wait for it - 1902 Singer Model 27. I have demo'd the machine sewing #69 bonded nylon thread into 8-9 ounces of bridle leather, as well as 2 layers of 4 ounce suede split. It starts sewing on its own and continues, at slow or fast speed, until I back off the pedal. All the rest of the old machines need to be hand wheeled to start sewing into more than 4-5 ozs.

 

Main reason I posted the info that the White (somewhat heavier duty than most so-called industrial strenght machines as it has a 1.3amp motor) would not even penetrate a mere 6 ounze of leather. Which I guess proves Wiz's often made assursion about such machine. However, just to make full disclosure: the leather I tried is salvaged from an old thrift store purse and may be tougher than new leather. Still I would have expected it to sew two layer of 3oz (1/8th inch) of the stuff. It would not do it even without thread in the machine. Organ 15x1 LL #16 needle, #69 thread,..