Members TinkerTailor Posted November 10, 2016 Author Members Report Posted November 10, 2016 34 minutes ago, cdthayer said: Trump campaigned that he would concentrate on building up the American infrastructure. Global markets caught that, and I see this morning that copper and other commodity metals are seeing yuge gains world-wide. An aluminum maker in Russia jumped by the most on record, making me glad that I began stock-piling cast iron (sewing machines) and aluminum (empty beer cans) a decade ago, back in 2006. I think that the transportation industry will eventually take itself out of the equation, as the west coast strike a while back, and the Hanjin problems recently, seem to indicate how fragile the “just in time” delivery system really is. CD in Oklahoma I do not think anyone, Trump included, has any idea the financial and material costs of rebuilding Americas Infrastructure. They only got the railway across the United states by giving millions of acres to the Rail companies to sell off in order to recoup the costs. This land is gone. The interstates highways as well as a bunch of water related infrastructure was built in the 40''s and 50's after the war. It was the pre-war armament and l rebuilding of the entire continent of Europe that paid for them. It took a great depression and a world war to wake americans up and make themselves great, with HUGE personal and national sacrifice. People had to starve before they would change their ways. Now after 60 years of selling off the hard earned industries their grandparents sacrificed hugely for, they are in the same boat as before the depression. Unless the average American learns to sacrifice for the betterment of all, and the greater good, Trump will not succeed. The necessary decisions are too hard to take and too unpopular for Trump to succeed. Currently as soon as anyone says "greater good", they are a socialist or a commie....... Quote "If nobody shares what they know, we will eventually all know nothing." "There is no adventure in letting fear and common sense be your guide"
Members Big Sioux Saddlery Posted November 10, 2016 Members Report Posted November 10, 2016 40 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said: I do not think anyone, Trump included, has any idea the financial and material costs of rebuilding Americas Infrastructure. They only got the railway across the United states by giving millions of acres to the Rail companies to sell off in order to recoup the costs. This land is gone. The interstates highways as well as a bunch of water related infrastructure was built in the 40''s and 50's after the war. It was the pre-war armament and l rebuilding of the entire continent of Europe that paid for them. It took a great depression and a world war to wake americans up and make themselves great, with HUGE personal and national sacrifice. People had to starve before they would change their ways. Now after 60 years of selling off the hard earned industries their grandparents sacrificed hugely for, they are in the same boat as before the depression. Unless the average American learns to sacrifice for the betterment of all, and the greater good, Trump will not succeed. The necessary decisions are too hard to take and too unpopular for Trump to succeed. Currently as soon as anyone says "greater good", they are a socialist or a commie....... Yep, right again! Quote
Contributing Member JLSleather Posted November 10, 2016 Contributing Member Report Posted November 10, 2016 Your "made in america" myth was present even back then. The railroad you refer to was largely built by Chinese and Irish immigrants Quote "Observation is 9/10 of the law." IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.
Members CraftyNick Posted November 10, 2016 Members Report Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) Good thoughts here folks. Thanks for bringing up the topic. I am concerned about the same and here are my thoughts: Nowadays, although people think the standard of living has gone way up, the quality of it has gone way way down. A hundred years ago people ate all their food organic, locally grown, and hand made. Their shoes and clothing were also hand made, just for them, in the USA. As with everything else they had. If we care about where our food and goods come from, and that they are produced in a responsible, ethical manner here in our own country, we need to be willing pay for that "better" stuff. We all know that stuff is more expensive, but if we bought it we'd have less money for buying stuff we don't need, like the latest electronics and lawnmowers that are just unnecessary and don't come from the US and just become trash and pollution for and the environment. At the same time we would create a demand for our friends and neighbors here at home who wish they could make a living doing their passion - leather working, tailoring, small-scale farming, etc. In other words, producing stuff the way it should be produced. I spend a lot effort, and sometimes money too, to produce my leather crafts with real materials from the right sources. For me it's not just about the crafting things, it's about the philosophy behind it, as it seems a lot of other leather workers are concerned about too. It kind of runs with the trade. Now, to be frank, you might find me buying some not US made stuff or materials sometimes, but my complaint is that American manufacturing has been relegated to making things that are for absolute perfectionist rich people that don't care a bit about how much it costs - they just need the best. That's the way it is with leather. You can buy American leather, but not "reasonable-quality" American leather, just "perfect" American leather. And if you can't buy the perfect leather, you'll have to buy it from somewhere who does make "reasonable-quality" leather. In summary of that idea, the other end of the problem of the lack of American made product is that no one can afford to produce it who doesn't have customers who are eccentric rich people. Because that's what you'd have to be to pay as much for the "perfect" American made stuff that's available. There needs to be also a market and supply for "reasonable", practical handmade American products. Not just a market for rich people buying novelty stuff. That is, that's what we need to bring back the small-scale American producer. And this applies to other places besides America that have this problem. Edited November 10, 2016 by CraftyNick Quote
Members TinkerTailor Posted November 10, 2016 Author Members Report Posted November 10, 2016 7 minutes ago, CraftyNick said: We all know that stuff is more expensive, but if we bought it we'd have less money for buying stuff we don't need, like the latest electronics and lawnmowers are just unnecessary and don't come from the US and just become trash and pollution for the environment. Trillions of dollars have been spent over decades to convince the people that the only good thing is the latest and greatest thing. Buy the new widget because your friends will think its cooler than the old one.............. We, as well as our parents have been inundated with this marketing and can't be blamed for following blindly. That is what the marketers have been working for. It surrounds us 24 hours a day. There is basically no demand for anything that lasts and repairable because people are conditioned to put no value in "old stuff".....Funny thing is, the new widget is the same price as the old one but way lower quality. Who cares that it broke, There is a new one now.......Once you start attempting to fix stuff you quickly see how crappy it was made. It then informs your future purchasing decisions, "am i going to be able to replace that cord/hose if/when it breaks?" I believe in the philosophy of buy right once, and maintain it forever. This means 2 years down the road, I am buying something different instead of the same thing again. Yes the product may cost double or triple, but it is once. In the long run I end up with more and better stuff for the same money cause it didn't break and if it did, i could get the parts to fix it. Frequently these days the only choice to buy right is to buy old. Buying items that others bought right, lovingly used and cared for for their whole life and left them behind still perfectly usable. My shop stereo is a 1972 technics amp with sansui sp95 speakers. I think I bought it for 75 bucks. It has real wood speakers with real wood lattice grills and a wood amp case. Sounds good quiet, and really good loud. Really really good. And it looks beautiful. It has been used hard for decades but treated well. For 5 years it was used as the stereo for a bicycle shop, bumping away for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. I know it will outlast me. I added a small 6 channel mixer I found for 40 bucks used so it had more inputs and now it has radio, computer, cd, phono, iphone, cable box and dvd inputs. The number of brand new home stereo components my friends have gone through in the decade I have owned it, trying to get what i have, is astonishing. Quit buying crap. Buy right once. Grow some food. Make stuff. At least attempt to fix stuff. Live simply so others can simply live. Quote "If nobody shares what they know, we will eventually all know nothing." "There is no adventure in letting fear and common sense be your guide"
Contributing Member JLSleather Posted November 10, 2016 Contributing Member Report Posted November 10, 2016 10 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said: There is basically no demand for anything that lasts and repairable because people are conditioned to put no value in "old stuff" NOW you're getting there. It's one thing to not want to pay for real quality and workmanship. We're WAY beyond that. People want cheap and fast, because they INTEND to replace after a short time. Many aren't interested in a product that will last for years, since they are terrified that their "friends" will have something different soon and they'll want to follow along ... Blame at least some of this on teh crafter, though. Long speeches about "handmade" attached to something poorly done with low-grade materials, and viola -- people who think "handmade" means flaws and errors coupled with higher prices. Quote "Observation is 9/10 of the law." IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.
Members TinkerTailor Posted November 10, 2016 Author Members Report Posted November 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, JLSleather said: Blame at least some of this on teh crafter, though. Long speeches about "handmade" attached to something poorly done with low-grade materials, and viola -- people who think "handmade" means flaws and errors coupled with higher prices. This is just a result of the loss of actual quality craftsmen. Consumers just have not seen quality hand made products before. The number of people I have had to show pictures of me actually stitching an item before they would believe I stitch that consistent, neat and tidy by hand is astounding. They all are convinced that only a machine can sew like that. Not to knock the craftsmen on this site, but look around at the gallery for straight lines some time. Even with a ruler a surprising number can not cut a straight line. Beautiful stitching but the pocket is crooked.... In many well regarded youtube videos outside curves are cut by chopping away a bunch of straight sections and this is seen as the neatest way. Cutting a straight line is one of the most basic apprentice skills, and is necessary to call yourself a craftsman of any type.... I have spent a lifetime learning how to move my hand in a straight line, whether drawing, cutting or whatever. I can cut exactly on a line, and up to 12 oz in one cut freehand with no ruler. I have used my hands for my whole life and have great dexterity and hand strength. I lay out pieces with 1/8" between max, frequently cutting the straight edges of two pieces with one cut and no straightedge, following a line. Cutting this way, with clean one stroke cuts saves alot of time and leather waste in the long run. A one cut edge is a breeze to burnish. A 12 cut hack job takes 1/2 of sanding to make passable. This is risky but i am confident in my ability to be accurate. I don't mean to brag here, just bring up that being good with your hands takes more than deciding to do some leather stuff for an hour here and there. I could cut a straight line when i started this leather hobby. My other skills just transferred over. This takes using your hands for many things for a long time. You can't learn this on a computer. You learn this by using your hands. A straight line is a straight line. If you can draw one on paper, you can cut one in leather or in wood. If you don't know what straight "feels like" you will have great difficulty. If you want to see the skill of a craftsman, you can't look at the product, look at the scraps and waste, they don't lie. Apparently, in 20 years the average grip strength of a person in north America has dropped 20%. We don't use our hands anymore. If your hand is not strong enough it can't make a straight cut, period. If you want to see the skill of a craftsman, you can't look at the product, look at the scraps and waste, they don't lie. Quote "If nobody shares what they know, we will eventually all know nothing." "There is no adventure in letting fear and common sense be your guide"
Members billybopp Posted November 10, 2016 Members Report Posted November 10, 2016 I have a term for the current mentality in the US, and to some extent worldwide, "The WalMart Society". It doesn't matter the consequences, just get it cheap. I, for one, refuse to shop at or support their store. It would be bad enough if, as well publicized, WalMart (and others) didn't just screw over their employees. Less publicized is the way that they screw over their suppliers. A few years ago, I spoke with a VP of a well known paper products supplier, and was told that WalMart sends in teams to inspect the books of their suppliers, performs their own cost analysis and then negotiates what price they will pay for products. They offer a take it or leave it deal, which leaves virtually no profit for the supplier, who then has to decide, from a marketing standpoint, whether they can afford to not have their product on the shelves of the largest retailer around. Sounds like a good business plan for WalMart, doesn't it? The supplier doesn't really profit, and can't then afford to raise the standard of living for THEIR employees, ensuring that THEY no have to buy their needs as cheaply as possible. It also ensures that WalMart's small competitors likely cannot match their deal. Unfortunately, other large retailers are now using the same sort of practices. It's a downward spiral all around that can only be stopped by all of us. If we're willing. Quote
Contributing Member JLSleather Posted November 10, 2016 Contributing Member Report Posted November 10, 2016 You mention multiple why-tube videos, but say you can't "learn this from a computer" (I agree, you can't). But I don't think we're talking about the same thing any more. While I would agree that people aren't used to seeing skilled work, my position is that it DOESN"T MATTER WHY. If your work "sucks", then it really makes no difference whether it's done "by hand" or with machines. And I disagree that you can't tell quality from the product ... in fact, that's the only place you can tell. We've all seen acres of hand made poop.. all the time. The fact that it's "handmade" doesn't make it better than it is. This is just one reason FOR the increase in manufactured stuff -- if the 'crafted' is poop, then WHY would I buy it .. much less pay more for it!?$??!?! Quote "Observation is 9/10 of the law." IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.
Members TinkerTailor Posted November 10, 2016 Author Members Report Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, JLSleather said: You mention multiple why-tube videos, but say you can't "learn this from a computer" (I agree, you can't). What I meant by my previous statement is you can not learn how to use your hands from a computer. You can however learn a great deal in front of a computer if you spend the time accessing media in a directed manner. Time spent on youtube watching cat videos and on facebook farming is time wasted. Time spent going through old textbooks and manuals from the smithsonian and watching videos by users like gmace on leather work from an english saddlery examiner can be VERY educational. Its all in how you use it. Watching one of Uwe's videos on machine adjustment or something is good for 2+ hours of examining the manual. NEVER has it been easier to learn so much with so little effort. Conversely never has it been as easy to be a complete waste of skin. People consuming food and resources that give no returns back to society while they clickity clicking on farmville and watch russian dashcam videos for hours. Resources that could be consumed by someone who contributes to the betterment of man AND the planet by making/fixing/growing/nurturing stuff. The internet is a resource just like our food and needs to be used effectively to be useful. As far as the prices for crappily done handmade items, perhaps the price they are charging is the right price. Perhaps those who do nicer work should actually be getting double. Slide the scale some. Obviously doubling the price of the stuff we make is impossible because the price ends up so far from the cheap chinese crap it is staggering. However, don't forget the social/environmental/political costs of these low import prices. Poor quality materials and assembly line factory production are one way to save money but the real reason we import is they don't pay workers anything and they destroy their surroundings. Part of the marketing has been to blind people to these aspects. Once this cost is factored in, crappy handmade stuff would not be far off of the price of the low quality import, and doubling the current price of our products becomes justified. If these factors mattered in china, companies would save the shipping and locate the machines here. It could be that the marketing engine has got to you as well. As to the quality comment, I was refering to the quality of the craftsman not the product. Chromium water pumped into rivers at discount tanneries is waste from the craftsman. Poor quality hides have larger areas of waste. A good craftsman will take in quality raw materials and produce exceptional products with very little waste. As you go down in quality of craftsmanship, waste goes up. Edited November 10, 2016 by TinkerTailor Quote "If nobody shares what they know, we will eventually all know nothing." "There is no adventure in letting fear and common sense be your guide"
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