Singer 45K Open & Closed Frame Shuttle - Whats The Difference???

[Constabulary]

I always wanted to ask this...

What is the difference (beside the obvious) between an open frame and closed frame shuttle for the Singer 45K / Adler 4 & 5 and the like?
I notice that the up to date 441 clones all have closed frame shuttles as it seems but even in old 45K parts list from the 1920´s or so they show open frame and closed frame shuttles for the same machine. I have a (very) rough idea but I´m not sure and wondering what the "old school" LW and dealers know about it.

[CowboyBob]

The larger thread works better when sewing leather with the open frame,there is less  metal to  for the thread to drag against so the thread slides through easier.

[Constabulary]

Thanks Bob! My thought was just the opposite. The closed frame puts more dragon the thread (agree) but I thought thats better for thicker thread / thick materials. But maybe I´m wrong. So with other words closed frame for thread up to 138 / 207 and open frame for 207 and up?

[Uwe]

I had been wondering about the same thing some time ago. I have a dozen or so aftermarket 91774 open frame 45K shuttle hooks. I suppose there's bit of tight spot on the corner of a closed frame hook ( similar to my Adler 205 video.) There's probably a smoother ride for the thread to drag along the smooth edge of a closed frame hook as opposed to bouncing down a few steps on a open frame hook. The closed frame hook likely is more rigid and dimensionally stable, less likely to twist or bend. 

I'm wondering if open and closed frame versions are interchangeable in Singer 45K models. If anybody recognizes the manufacturer's mark on my aftermarket hooks (looks like an H inside a G) please let me know - I've not been able to find a reference. 

 

[Constabulary]

I meanwhile have a 45D and a couple of open and closed frame shuttles (different brands and condition, some orig Adler and some quality after market shuttles from NÄMATAG and so forth but not all have a brand stamp). Yet I have not tested them all but both types work in the machine. At the moment I THINK the open frame works better my 11/3 SYNTON thread and 10mm resin coated nylon webbing. But I have not used the machine very much so atm it´s just a "feeling".

I just thought there's a reason why there are 2 different types of shuttles....

EDIT:

Uwe, your Videos are always excellent - haven´t seen this one before but its great to see in slomo

Edited November 16, 2016 by Constabulary

[jimi]

I would imagine it was just a design change, nothing else. remember at one point they were OBSOLETE in the parts manuals. if you look at a manual you will almost always find the illustrations in pairs. one hook for thin thread and one hook for thick thread. this can be seen when you compare the heel, they are slightly different. try and trace one then compare to the other beside it and there should be one with the heel slightly smaller. in this case the #91044. here are two open shuttles, one for thick and the other for thin? just my opinion..

 

[Uwe]

I think that diagram shows the exact same parts, just assembled and separately, from a slightly different angle. 91046 is the complete hook assembly, 91044 is the frame that is part of the 91046 assembly. 

The page from the 45K68/69/71 parts book shows hook assembly 91774, which consists of individual parts 91772, 91771, 91043, 91795

Edited November 16, 2016 by Uwe

[jimi]

mmm? yeah i think you are right Uwe

[Constabulary]

You still can buy both types.

[jimi]

So Bob that is probably the reason the Frobana use the open frame type?? 

[TinkerTailor]

The question would be, "Is it worthwhile to have one of each if you are frequently switching a machine from small to big thread and back?" Obviously a 441 is set up out of the box with parts that can handle the biggest thread, with the tradeoff being not as good performance on smaller threads. Good luck getting a nice backside stitch and no blowout on the back when the needle hole in the feed dog is 3 stitches wide at a normal stitch length for 69 or 92...... Perhaps the closed/open frame question and which one is more common today also relates to machines being designed with huge thread in mind.

[CowboyBob]

21 hours ago, jimi said:

So Bob that is probably the reason the Frobana use the open frame type?? 

The Frobana has a wax pot on it for using cotton or linen thread (same as most other shoe stitchers) so I would guess it's another reason for the open type.Back when these old Singer 45K where being used they didn't have nylon thread so also had a wax pot for lubing the thread too.

[Yetibelle]

I have a 45 shuttle that was froze and would not pop the bobbin.  So after I got it cleaned up and scrapped out the crud I could get it to pop open.  I took out the press set-screw out if the press-release and then cleaned that out.  I'm not sure if it was crud or not but I think it had a thin strip of felt under the press release?  I think the felt is what kept the tension for it to click into the lock position? Maybe? Do you have a picture of what that felt looks like? Or what it should look like under the press-release?  I  suppose Incan just make one easy enough with an example.  Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Constabulary]

The "felt" must have been of mixture of old compressed dirt oil and lint See above pictures of parts or check the parts list - there is no felt.

[Yetibelle]

Yeah it must have just been allot of crud.  Wow it turned into a felt-like material that I will now refer to as a Machine-Pie (similar to cow-pie).  

 

[alexitbe]

On 17.11.2016 at 3:19 PM, CowboyBob said:

The Frobana has a wax pot on it for using cotton or linen thread (same as most other shoe stitchers) so I would guess it's another reason for the open type.Back when these old Singer 45K where being used they didn't have nylon thread so also had a wax pot for lubing the thread too.

Does this mean the the 45K shuttle fits a frobana?  this is good to know...

Thanks

Alex

[Constabulary]

The Frobana hook tip has a different profile I guess thats because of the curved needle. I once had a Frobana (was curious how it works but figured I cannot use it) but I honestly have not tried a 45K type hook in it

[alexitbe]

Thank you Constab....  I have seen a Frobana for sale, but it has no shuttle or hook race... I was wondering if it was possible to use the Singer 45k one...

 

All the best.

Alex

[Darren Brosowski]

I have seen the Frobana run with the 45k closed frame shuttle with no problems.

 

Whether or not the open frame makes any significant difference is a great question.

[alexitbe]

Thanks Darren,

I have just bought  a Frobrana / Gritzner with a shuttle, however it has no tension on it . I cannot get the tension spring to work.

I have found this shuttle for sale at 34 Euros and will probably give it a go... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/SHUTTLE-HOOK-CLOSED-FRAME-98622-98624-BOBBINS-95093-10-PCS-FOR-SINGER-45K-NECCHI-630-ADLER/32784850026.html?spm=2114.40010308.4.57.YYk4BB

The only problem is I will have to wait along time for it to arrive...

 

Cheers

Alex

[Constabulary]

Alex - check if there is dirt / lint / wax under the tension spring... I also successfully bent back the tension spring at the top end where the screw goes through...

[alexitbe]

Thanks Constab,

 

I will give that a go and also start another thread so this one does not go too far off topic..

 

Cheers

Alex

[jimi]

Hi Alex, maybe the spring has a wide opening for thicker thread than the one you are trying with??? just a thought? when i tried with bonded nylon thread i had to change the shuttle as the one in it had the tension spring for thicker thread and would not hold the slippery nylon one.

here on the right the tension spring has a bigger gap for the thick thread, on the left the new on is smaller.

the first picture is the cheap ali express shuttle in the race so it might work after grinding? second picture is to show that there is a bigger gap where the pin holds the bobbin cover, so if you grind it down you might have very little metal there. the third picture is of another 45k type shuttle of better quality with the gap smaller like the frobana shuttle but it has that small cutaway right near the tip which would not leave you any meat up there??? hope this helps..(just in case you were going to try another shuttle)

https://es.aliexpress.com/store/product/SEWING-MACHINE-SPARE-PARTS-ACCESSORIES-HIGH-QUALITY-SEWING-SHUTTLE-HOOK-DD1-98622-FOR-SINGER-45K/118575_32602597834.html?spm=2114.04020208.3.69.t2B6JI&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10065_10151_10068_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10301_10110_10136_10303_10137_519_10111_10060_10176_10112_10155_10113_10114_437_10154_10056_10055_10054_10182_10059_303_10184_100031_10099_10078_10079_10103_10073_10102_10109_10052_10053_10142_10107_142_10050_10051,searchweb201603_49,ppcSwitch_5_ppcChannel&btsid=a302ed45-d769-457b-872b-2dd6e12c63b1&algo_expid=ca5a58fd-8ec2-4655-acb3-0c1959ba2955-9&algo_pvid=ca5a58fd-8ec2-4655-acb3-0c1959ba2955.

Edited July 2, 2017 by jimi

[sandyt]

Whoa..... what a coincidence! I just finished grinding an old alder hook for my Gritzner. I thought I would just give it a go. It came with a machine a while ago. Very worn, so I wouldn't mind if I destroyd it. It works great!

It's an open frame. But I can't think of something why a closed one wouldn't work. I bet it would. Enough clearence etc...

Sandy.

[sandyt]