Who uses a Pearson #6

[Constabulary]

14 hours ago, atexascowboy said:

Does anyone know if the Pearson no. 6 will sew with waxed 7 cord Irish linen thread ?

I´m pretty sure it could (technically) but the largest needle you can find at most dealers is is 230 metric. Some may have larger needles but you barely find them on the "free market" meaning the WWW.

 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Catskin, do you have pictures and let us be the judge? . While I have never even seen a Pearson, I do believe they would be capable of doing some types of work that are not possible or would be a struggle with a 441 clone.  To my knowledge, there are no set-up feet available for the 441's.  Also, due to the feed system and feet on a 441, doing fine raised work is a compromise at best.  You can't channel traces on a 441, nor does stitching rounds leave the user with a decent result.  I know all those things are very possible on a Landis #1, and I'm assuming a Pearson as well, since the two are somewhat similar in design, if not method of feed.  Also, I can often cheat down a needle size on my #1, and seldom can I ever do that on my Cowboy 4500.  We are limited now by the modern needles that are available for our vintage machines.  The original needles were far superior in design, and produced a finer stitch than is possible with the modern needles.

Speaking for myself, I'm certainly not ticked off at your opinion, and I'll even admit there are things I can do on my Cowboy that I can't do on my #1, and you wouldn't be able to do on your Pearson.  I do believe that it is possible to get a tighter stitch with the vintage machines if they are right, than it is possible to get on a new 441 type machine. But the fact is, no machine will do everything, and there is still something cool about the machines that were made 100 years ago and still do a good job of sewing.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Big Sioux Saddlery

[plinkercases]

15 hours ago, catskin said:

I had to build a bobbin winder which I finished yesterday ,it is not hard to do. I hope to be able to post a picture soon.

looking forward to seeing that invention... working on one myself...

[catskin]

20 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Catskin, do you have pictures and let us be the judge? . While I have never even seen a Pearson, I do believe they would be capable of doing some types of work that are not possible or would be a struggle with a 441 clone.  To my knowledge, there are no set-up feet available for the 441's.  Also, due to the feed system and feet on a 441, doing fine raised work is a compromise at best.  You can't channel traces on a 441, nor does stitching rounds leave the user with a decent result.  I know all those things are very possible on a Landis #1, and I'm assuming a Pearson as well, since the two are somewhat similar in design, if not method of feed.  Also, I can often cheat down a needle size on my #1, and seldom can I ever do that on my Cowboy 4500.  We are limited now by the modern needles that are available for our vintage machines.  The original needles were far superior in design, and produced a finer stitch than is possible with the modern needles.

Speaking for myself, I'm certainly not ticked off at your opinion, and I'll even admit there are things I can do on my Cowboy that I can't do on my #1, and you wouldn't be able to do on your Pearson.  I do believe that it is possible to get a tighter stitch with the vintage machines if they are right, than it is possible to get on a new 441 type machine. But the fact is, no machine will do everything, and there is still something cool about the machines that were made 100 years ago and still do a good job of sewing.

I guess I am a bit new to the Pearson.  Having only had it a few weeks.  But with the work I do I have yet to find anything that I would not be able to do on the Cowboy. We each have different things we do. And I have never seen any attachments for a Pearson only heard about them. I would like to see and or get any that there are.  I am in no way putting down the Pearson it IS a good machine. If I didn't think it would be good I would not have bought it.

.  But as stated no machine will do it all , That's why I have 7.   But the guys that were stating that a 441 were a poor machine and would NOT do what a Pearson can were wrong. They can do most of it.   I speak from experience ( several years ) of using a 4500.   I have seen and know several people that have Landis # 1 machines and they thought they were good.  But all of then said that they thought a Pearson would be even better, They never told me why they thought that, only that one said that the Landis would only do traces. There is a Landis #1 sitting 2 miles from me that the people have offered me several times but would not put a price on it.  Or likely  would be owning it. So when I got a chance to get this one I jumped at it.

 

To pinker,

I have been trying to post pictures but have not been able yet.  You may not have what I used for the drive.  It is the winder that is used for winding yarn for 100+ year old sock knitting machines.  It works much like the Pearson winder but uses a belt rather then gears. 

[Matt S]

The Pearson/BUSMC #6 is a great machine, especially considering it was designed when Queen Victoria was busy being all queenlike. The Juki 441 and its various clones are also great machines (or so I hear, never seen one in the flesh). There is stuff a 441 can do that a 6 can't -- like reverse and sew bag gussets. Equally there's stuff that a #6 can do that a 441 can't -- like Big Sioux says with the right attachment you can channel as you go, you can sew rounds, there's pricking/set-up feet for neat work. One of the things I like best that's missing from a lot of modern machines is that it has a rectangular needle feed motion, which keeps the stitch length the same no matter how thick the material -- climb from a single thickness to 4x thicknesses of 4mm leather and back down again and your stitches will be exactly the same length all the way along. The length adjustment wheel is actually marked in stitches per inch, it's very finely adjustable (great for repairs or the aforementioned pricking feet) and it's accurate. It has a semi-self-adjusting tension mechanism too which is completely different to 99% of the machines I see, so again the same tension setting will pretty much work with any thickness of leather.

Spare parts are tricky with the #6, considering it's been out of manufacture for over half a century. Needles are also a problem, Schmetz Nm230 are relatively common though that limits you to 18/5 thread. I'm lucky enough to have a fair stock of NOS needles and some spare parts which came with my machine, plus the later style of treadle stand. This really helps with sewing longer lengths but if I didn't have it I'd happily motorise it. Even with a motor it's not a fast machine -- the manual suggests no faster than 300SPM, which I think is about right -- above this speed it jumps about like a washing machine with a breeze block in it.

I like my #6 but I think the 441 is a more general-purpose machine.

[catskin]

I wonder if some of those that don't have the various attachments  ( I have nearly all of them )for the 441 type of machine don't realize that they are available.  Like the saddle maker  that was here last winter , he has a genuine Juki 441 ( had it for many years ) but only had the big feet was very surprised that these other feet  feed dogs and plates were available.  And intended to order them.  So like the Pearson if you do not have the right attachments it limits what you can do. I do not know what attachments are for the Pearson or where it might be possible to get any of them.  I got only the machine. I made an edge guide and bobbin winder.  As my Pearson is ,doing any fine work would be difficult.  My Cowboy does that easy. For example sewing 2 stitch lines on 1/2 " wide leather with 207 thread.  I would be very happy if those of you that have Pearson  attachments would post pictures.  I might be able to make my own version of some.  As others likely could too.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

8 hours ago, catskin said:

They never told me why they thought that, only that one said that the Landis would only do traces. 

Nothing could be further from the truth.  The reason the Pearson is considered a superior machine to the Landis is just as Matt S states above.  Both machines, when they were new, were designed to do a wide range of harness work from sewing heavy traces to the finest carriage harness.  But in order to do super fine work, the machines have to be TIGHT, the operator must be knowledgeable of the adjustment and operation of the machine, and the correct needles and thread must be used.  Given that all of those things are lacking today, people try to produce fine work on them and get poor results, giving the machines a bad rap.  There have been improvements to the modern machines, to be sure.  But in doing so, some things that made the old machines great machines have been omitted.   Which machine will do the best job for any given person depends largely on the type of work they will be doing the most, and their ability and willingness to spend the time learning the machine and setting it up to do that work.  I will admit, overall the modern 441 type machines will be the most user friendly and versatile machines for most users.  But I will never say that they have the best looking or best quality stitch.

There's a reason Shanahan's of show harness fame still use a Pearson, and it isn't because they can't afford to buy new machinery.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Big Sioux Saddlery

[Silverd]

Way to go Big Sioux! 

 

Silverd

[Wizcrafts]

1 minute ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Nothing could be further from the truth.  The reason the Pearson is considered a superior machine to the Landis is just as Matt S states above.  Both machines, when they were new, were designed to do a wide range of harness work from sewing heavy traces to the finest carriage harness.  But in order to do super fine work, the machines have to be TIGHT, the operator must be knowledgeable of the adjustment and operation of the machine, and the correct needles and thread must be used.  Given that all of those things are lacking today, people try to produce fine work on them and get poor results, giving the machines a bad rap.  There have been improvements to the modern machines, to be sure.  But in doing so, some things that made the old machines great machines have been omitted.   Which machine will do the best job for any given person depends largely on the type of work they will be doing the most, and their ability and willingness to spend the time learning the machine and setting it up to do that work.  I will admit, overall the modern 441 type machines will be the most user friendly and versatile machines for most users.  But I will never say that they have the best looking or best quality stitch.

I fully agree with the bold text statement in the quote. Before CowboySew or Cobra, or the Juki TSC-441 ever existed, I owned a Union Lockstitch machine. That machine used a separate needle and awl and had a jump foot. They are typically used to sew long runs of tug straps and other horse tack, with heavy 6 cord linen thread run through a wax pot. The standard needle and awl set for this kind of work resembles a roofing nail. As such, there is no perceptible give when the needle comes up through 3/4 inch of leather and pushes it back to complete a stitch.

While most of my sewing with that machine was thick thread into thick stacks of veg-tan or bridle leather, there were jobs that required more finesse, thinner thread and a correspondingly smaller needle and awl. During the years I owned that machine, I had purchased every available needle and awl made for it. Every setting would require tweaking when changing from a #4 down to a #1/2 needle (about the diameter of a #19 walking foot needle). The tapered screws that positioned the moving needle and stitch length assemblies had to be tightened almost to the point of binding to get a perfect placement of the tiny needle in the hole stabbed by the tiny #1 awl (about the diameter of a #20 needle). The slightest looseness in these parts usually resulted in the needle missing the hole, hitting the bottom of the leather, pushing it up and bending the $3.50 needle. But, once the machine was tightened to the Tees, it sewed like a champ. The only machine that could best it was a Campbell-Randall Lockstitch machine owned by a professional harness maker in the same city - whose work often went to the Rockefellers for their race horses.

[Singermania]

Great to see so much intelligent comment on the older machines, I cant say for sure that the no 6 is better than the Landis no 1, only that the former is needle feed and the latter is walking foot.   Needles currently available for the no 6 are as far as I know 160, 200, 230, 250.  I also have considerable stock of roundpoint in 300.  I've included a photo of some of my Pearsons.

[Singermania]

6 hours ago, catskin said:

I wonder if some of those that don't have the various attachments  ( I have nearly all of them )for the 441 type of machine don't realize that they are available.  Like the saddle maker  that was here last winter , he has a genuine Juki 441 ( had it for many years ) but only had the big feet was very surprised that these other feet  feed dogs and plates were available.  And intended to order them.  So like the Pearson if you do not have the right attachments it limits what you can do. I do not know what attachments are for the Pearson or where it might be possible to get any of them.  I got only the machine. I made an edge guide and bobbin winder.  As my Pearson is ,doing any fine work would be difficult.  My Cowboy does that easy. For example sewing 2 stitch lines on 1/2 " wide leather with 207 thread.  I would be very happy if those of you that have Pearson  attachments would post pictures.  I might be able to make my own version of some.  As others likely could too.

Hi, there do exist a few attachment for the no 6, most common are left and right roller guides, needle steadies and bobbin winders.   Here is a photo of the rein rounder attachment that we were remanufacturing a while back, this is the original....

[catskin]

I do agree that the Pearson was and likely still is one of the best machines made.  BUT I stand by my comment comparing the 2 machines.  BASED on what I have.  I do not have any kind of groover.  I do not have a rein rounder. I do not have pricker feet whatever they are. Nor do I have any other attachments if they exist.  And like big S. is with Pearsons, I have never seen any of those things. I do wonder if it would be any easier to sew rounds with it then with a 441 WITHOUT the right attachment.  So WITHOUT the attachments it is I believe limited to much less then with them.  And likely very few would be able to find them.  I have to wonder if the saddle makers that are replacing them with 441 and copies are doing it because they need the close tolerances that a worn out Pearson can no longer give them.  And a new clone can. After all there is rarely more then 15 feet of sewing on a saddle. ( not counting breast collar etc. ) And can't find , or don't feel the cost of a total rebuild is justified. No rounding on saddles nor likely grooving.

As for the Landis #1 I only repeated what the owners told me. The saddle maker had several feet for his and maybe other things but still had the opinion that Pearson might be better somehow.  He did all his sewing on saddles with his genuine Juki  441.  There again maybe 100 plus years of wear made it less then it was 99 years ago.

[Singermania]

Yes mate agree with you,  we at Cowboy Leather Machines in Australia sell the Cowboy CB4500 for saddlery work, we supply it with the double toe foot, left and right feet, left and right dogleg feet, roller guide, standard plate, narrow slotted plate, holster and stirrup plates for pretty much the reasons you outline, the machine is great but better with all the bits.  Pearsons commonly came with a double toe foot, left and right feet, pricker feet to drop stitches into in varying sizes, needle steadies in varying sizes, roller guides, rein rounder attachments and attachments to do piping and flat bed table.  I've sold most of the needle steadies and pricker feet now to people wanting to option up their Pearsons, here is a foto of some of my machines.   With regards to Pearsons being old and not sewing consistant stitching, I haven't found this to be the case, the head is fitted with vertical and horizontal fully adjustable sections that can be moved in to take up slack.

[atexascowboy]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:52 PM, plinkercases said:

looking forward to seeing that invention... working on one myself...

Ditto

[atexascowboy]

10 hours ago, Singermania said:

Great to see so much intelligent comment on the older machines, I cant say for sure that the no 6 is better than the Landis no 1, only that the former is needle feed and the latter is walking foot.   Needles currently available for the no 6 are as far as I know 160, 200, 230, 250.  I also have considerable stock of roundpoint in 300.  I've included a photo of some of my Pearsons.

Singer, I will be getting a #6 in the near future. It will be used to sew spur straps. At present I handsew using 7 cord waxed Irish linen which I would like to use in my Pearson. Will this thread work and if so which needle should I use with it ?

Thanks

I have attached a pic of my soon to be new baby.

 

[atexascowboy]

On 11/28/2018 at 1:43 AM, Constabulary said:

I´m pretty sure it could (technically) but the largest needle you can find at most dealers is is 230 metric. Some may have larger needles but you barely find them on the "free market" meaning the WWW.

 

Thank you.

[Matt S]

3 hours ago, atexascowboy said:

Singer, I will be getting a #6 in the near future. It will be used to sew spur straps. At present I handsew using 7 cord waxed Irish linen which I would like to use in my Pearson. Will this thread work and if so which needle should I use with it ?

Thanks

I have attached a pic of my soon to be new baby.

 

The manual declares that the no6 can use up to 18/8 linen so the size isn't the issue, but finding needles will be. IVI (who made needles and castings for BUSM) would call them a  size 7 needle. In modern terms you'll be looking for something like nm300 size, which do exist but not common in that class. I think that Schmetz was the most recent manufacturer of the 331 class needles and the only readily available ones are nm250, which is for 5cord linen. Aaron Martin in Canada lists nm250 and nm280 needles. If you can't find any suitable ones stateside PM me and I'll see what I can provide.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

17 hours ago, Singermania said:

Needles currently available for the no 6 are as far as I know 160, 200, 230, 250.  

What I'd like to know is, why in the world is there not a 180 needle made??  160 is pretty small for a heavy stitcher, and a machine has to be super tight to use them successfully.  I would occasionally use a 180, but a 160, almost never.  I guess I should be grateful there are any leather point needles at available for the Paearson and #1.  

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

18 hours ago, Silverd said:

Way to go Big Sioux! 

 

Silverd

You of all people know how strongly I feel about the subject!

[CowboyBob]

I know of a Amishman  that sells them he stocks 230,250 & 280 he gets $3.50 ea. for them You can PM me for his ph# if you need any.

[Singermania]

We bought the last 180 from Schmetz quite some time back and are all gone, I'm told to get a new run manufactured you need to order many thousands.   Using pre waxed thread in any sewing machine is not the best of ideas... the Pearson along with many other machines has a was box/tank, however it was intended for use with heated liquid wax.

[Matt S]

2 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

What I'd like to know is, why in the world is there not a 180 needle made??  160 is pretty small for a heavy stitcher, and a machine has to be super tight to use them successfully.  I would occasionally use a 180, but a 160, almost never.  I guess I should be grateful there are any leather point needles at available for the Paearson and #1.  

I managed to get hold of a pack of Schmetz 160s a couple years ago. Even with a no.4 needle steady I got a lot of breakages, which was painful at about £2/needle. There was a 3-1/2 size needle, which is pretty much a 180 -- I have some old IVIs which came with the machine. AFAIK there's no current production for the 331 needle class -- we're still using up the last batch of however many millions Schmetz was convinced to make.

The manual suggests using a size 3 needle (nm160) with 18/3 linen for sewing around winkers/blinkers @ 10SPI. Is that a common size thread for that sort of job, or was this one of those weird late Victorian show/dress/fancy harness things?

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

11 minutes ago, Matt S said:

The manual suggests using a size 3 needle (nm160) with 18/3 linen for sewing around winkers/blinkers @ 10SPI. Is that a common size thread for that sort of job, or was this one of those weird late Victorian show/dress/fancy harness things?

That size needle/thread/stitch length combination would be more for higher end carriage, show harness.  Most common grades and even the better end of the work harness gets 5 to 7 spi, and a 200 needle with 277 thread or a 346 thread with a 230 needle. Oftentimes on lighter harness I can cheat down to a #200 needle with a 346 thread.   I have gone as small as a 207 thread and an original #6 needle at 9 spi on my Landis #1, and oh what beauty to behold.

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, Singermania said:

We bought the last 180 from Schmetz quite some time back and are all gone, I'm told to get a new run manufactured you need to order many thousands.   Using pre waxed thread in any sewing machine is not the best of ideas... the Pearson along with many other machines has a was box/tank, however it was intended for use with heated liquid wax.

I wonder what would be the minimum order quantity? I'd love some new 300s or 330s.

There were several different arrangements for waxing thread available on the no6 machine, which are fairly well described in the catalogues. Over here it's rare to find any but the unheated solution box, which I think was the cheapest option. That's what I have on mine. I've used wax solution I made by dissolving candles in white spirit (paint thinner) with dry linen thread. Wax/linseed mix wasn't very successful. I've heard using straight linseed oil but I've not tried it yet. Most recently I've been using bonded poly thread with normal SM oil in the solution box.

The manual mentions using prewaxed thread but I think it needed the needle block and shuttle box heated (by lamps or electric heaters) to soften the wax. One day I might fabricobble some approximation of the original using high-power aluminium cased resistors but that presupposes I'll find myself such a thing as spare time one day...

[CowboyBob]

3 minutes ago, Matt S said:

I wonder what would be the minimum order quantity? I'd love some new 300s or 330s.

There were several different arrangements for waxing thread available on the no6 machine, which are fairly well described in the catalogues. Over here it's rare to find any but the unheated solution box, which I think was the cheapest option. That's what I have on mine. I've used wax solution I made by dissolving candles in white spirit (paint thinner) with dry linen thread. Wax/linseed mix wasn't very successful. I've heard using straight linseed oil but I've not tried it yet. Most recently I've been using bonded poly thread with normal SM oil in the solution box.

The manual mentions using prewaxed thread but I think it needed the needle block and shuttle box heated (by lamps or electric heaters) to soften the wax. One day I might fabricobble some approximation of the original using high-power aluminium cased resistors but that presupposes I'll find myself such a thing as spare time one day...

The last  time I talked with Schmetz they wanted an order of 10,000.