juki 441 Buying new Juki TSC 441 clone

[dikman]

Glad I could give you a chuckle, madmax . I should have said that most manuals can be found online, so my assumption was that most (with a clone) would probably try and download the genuine manual that the machine is based on. That's what I would do, but I guess I should have made myself clearer. (Slaps self on back of head).

[Diyer]

Thanks everyone for all your input. I am going to disagree about the comment on cheese screws, because if any of them have loctite on (as some are supposed to), and the material is soft, the head will deform and make it really difficult to undo, also possibly breaking off and leaving a nasty mess to drill  and tap out. There has to be a correct balance between the hardness of both components in my opinion.

Genuine Juki 441 heads are £6,000.00 or so plus Vat, so out of my price range.

I have had some good prices for clone 441 heads, but today,after saying second hand heads of the machine type I want are almost impossible to find- a visit to my local saddle maker for names of used machine dealers, I find he is selling a (well used)Adler 205/370 or 374 (grey paint) for reasonable money- likely under 2,000 euros. See my next post on the subject.

[mixmkr]

Stick a heat gun on that Locktite.  Makes a big difference.

[Diyer]

Yes, good idea. My heat gun has lots of uses.......

[Wizcrafts]

51 minutes ago, Diyer said:

Thanks everyone for all your input.

I have had some good prices for clone 441 heads, but today,after saying second hand heads of the machine type I want are almost impossible to find- a visit to my local saddle maker for names of used machine dealers, I find he is selling a (well used)Adler 205/370 or 374 (grey paint) for reasonable money- likely under 2,000 euros. See my next post on the subject.

If it is in good sewing condition and has harness feet, you have lucked out big time. Many of us suffer from Adler Envy, accompanied by thin wallets.

[Diyer]

The Adler Envy might well be replaced with an even thinner wallet when I have shelled out for the various spares I find it needs. I paid 80 euros for a presser foot (beautifully made) for my 105/64. I do like the Adler engineering though.

[MADMAX22]

19 hours ago, Uwe said:

As for screws, there is a mix of imperial, metric, and specialty xx/64 screws in many machines. Most Juki parts manuals, including the Juki TSC-441 Parts manual (Juki 441 parts List.pdf) list screw sizes, which is super useful. 

You don't want the screw material to be too strong. If you're going to cross thread or strip some threads, you want the screw to die, not the threaded hole. It's MUCH cheaper and MUCH easier to replace a screw than it is to re-drill and re-tap a threaded hole.

I will bet ya any of the German/Japanese made sewing machines had properly heat treated screws and bolts along with the old USA made ones. China has been known for both crap heat treat and junk metal, atleast until the US started selling them all our scrap steel for next to nothing. They are good at castings/coping for the most part hence why alot of people have taken various pieces of equipment and replaced the bearings/hardware/fittings and had a pretty nice item. 

Oh and if you properly install screws and bolts you dont have cross thread issues. 

[SolarLeatherMachines]

On 1/29/2017 at 4:16 PM, Diyer said:

PRICE VS QUALITY.

There is a huge difference in price between the genuine article, and the Chinese copy. As a retired engineer, I have always wondered where those cost savings have come from. Some will be the possibly artificial exchange rate, plus a lower labour cost. The rest will be "corner cutting"- lower or wider material specifications,lower tolerances on machining and finish specifications, plus more variability on heat treatment.(my pet hate- I cannot get sewing pins that do not either break or bend!!) Also eliminating or combining as many parts as possible will reduce manufacturing cost.

I'm a trained Mechanical Design Engineer from aerospace, and have designed MANY extreme precision machines.  Now I represent Cowboy Machines in Dallas.  

Choosing a clone really comes down to the problem of "Better being the enemy of Good Enough".  If the clone does a job that you're happy with, why would you pay more?   For sure, there are some awesome machines coming out of Germany, but those prices are awesome, too.  

On 1/29/2017 at 4:16 PM, Diyer said:

How have people coped without those marks, other than trial and error, with many hours of sweat and frustration?Also, the settings in the manual are for the blanket stitch feed dog and foot, not the smooth leather ones.Is there going to be a difference-I did note that the manual states their settings are a "starting point".

The timing marks are helpful but not essential.  There are other landmarks (bosses, journals, flats) that are carved in the mainshaft, and THOSE are the primary timing landmarks.   Once you do a few hundred machines, you simply start at one end, and adjust them down the line.  For a completely, seriously honked-up machine, it can re-timed in about 20 minutes. 

I totally agree about the soft metal in the fasteners.  Especially in the allen screws.  I now have a vast collection of properly made hardware, and anytime a fastener is in question, I replace it.  It save so much time in the long run.  

-Alexander
Solar Leather Machines

[MADMAX22]

On 2/3/2017 at 4:03 PM, SolarLeatherMachines said:

The timing marks are helpful but not essential.  There are other landmarks (bosses, journals, flats) that are carved in the mainshaft, and THOSE are the primary timing landmarks.   Once you do a few hundred machines, you simply start at one end, and adjust them down the line.  For a completely, seriously honked-up machine, it can re-timed in about 20 minutes. 

Do you have any info you would care to share on this? Not being able to use the juki manual the way it is written because the machine doesnt have timing marks, a few videos I have scene have you setting timing based on parts that are loosened and repositioned to achieve proper timing so to me that doesnt make much sense but I havent done alot of these machines. 

[SolarLeatherMachines]

11 hours ago, MADMAX22 said:

Do you have any info you would care to share on this? Not being able to use the juki manual the way it is written because the machine doesnt have timing marks, a few videos I have scene have you setting timing based on parts that are loosened and repositioned to achieve proper timing so to me that doesnt make much sense but I havent done alot of these machines. 

Sure.  The main shaft is the key.  It is "zero" and all parts must be relative to it.

Specifically, the round "groove-cam" at the end of the mainshaft is permanently mounted on in most cases, so it's the one item that won't change. That cam has a step machined into it that attaches to the needle bar dog-bone.  It is this step that is a major landmark, since it is easy to spot, and doesn't change position relative to the main shaft. Timing the machine is simply a manner of rotating this cam to the various angular positions(horizontal, vertical, etc) and setting the baseline drive pieces into position.  Each drive piece has a particular cam rotation, and a corresponding position.  Once you get these 2 major pieces into correct rotational position relative to the cam, everything else is cake.  

This level of timing problem is really rare.  I'd be surprised if you have it, but you can check.  One of the indicators would be that the hook assembly is turning in the opposite direction of the normal motion.  

Edited February 11, 2017 by SolarLeatherMachines