The First Dreaded Crossroad....

[bikermutt07]

I have done the homework. I am working a side project to put the funds in place. Now comes the hard part, which machine first.

The Contenders:

Consew 206RB-5

Cowboy 4500

What I am Sewing:

I have been a fan if smaller projects and am looking towards craft fare items. Bracelets, wallets, small passport journals and the like.

What I might sew:

Knife sheaths and concealed holsters. Messenger bags, maybe some simple purses.

I thought in the past a 3200 could support both areas, but now I see I need more dedicated equipment.

Here are a few future possibilities to consider. My brother slings guns at every show in DFW. He offered to sell my holsters if I send them. No Charge. How cool is that? My wife and I have worked a few craft shows with little to show for it but experience. What experience I gained was a bunch of husbands getting drug from booth the booth with nothing to get excited about. They need some man items. This could be wallets or holsters.

If I hold out for the 4500 I think I could have the consew in no time flat afterwards. Plus the smaller investment later sounds easier.

Things to keep in mind: I want this to stay a hobby part time gig. I would also like to keep breathing (wife). I shy away from the larger stuff due to time constraints and lack of wanting to hand sew large items.

I already have the dealers in mind. They are three hours away.

I have almost talked myself into the 4500 by posting this.

One last thing.

Question: Will these two machines pretty much handle all the items above? Is a guy set with these two machines?

Thanks everyone.

 

[brmax]

Theres no doubt you did some homework and well!

If you decide the 4500 first it looks as though your projects change levels. 

Im sure the machines will work out as your mentioned production and future, Its pretty cool to have all the family interested.

Itsa hoot hearing the experience you see at the shows and very well done there. Cracks me up, So  (let me look around) your saying as long as there is some dude stuff scattered amongst the chick stuff its a sellers showplace.

I think you did some great homework, maybe consider consulting also your on a roll.

Good choices and thanks for the tips

Floyd

[Wizcrafts]

Yes, a flatbed walking foot and a cylinder arm 441 clone are an excellent starting setup for serious sewing. The Consew can handle leather ranging from a few ounces up to 24 ounces, with thread sizes 69, 92 and 138, while the Cowboy covers items from 6 ounces to 7/8 of an inch with thread sizes 138 and up.

[JimTimber]

Wiz, I'm curious why you say 138 and up for the 441 clones?

Earlier this evening I was sewing 69 on the bobbin (just trying to use it up since there's not much left on it) and 93 on top using a #19 needle sewing light weight poly webbing onto single layer 500D nylon.   I didn't change anything but the top thread (put the 69 on my 211G for more flat work tonight) from when I had the same 69 thread on the needle last night sewing four layers of the same fabric with 2 layers of 1/2" open cell foam pad between the nylon.

As to Biker's original question, if you'll notice what two machines I'm using (441 clone and your Consew is in the same family as my 211G), I'd have to agree that you've got the right idea as it's the conclusion I came to as well.  For as awesome as the 441 is, it's not as fast as my Singer.  If you're going to do large thinner items, having the bed machine is going to be an asset.  Starting out, I'd go for the 441 first.  You can get a table for it easier than you can get a Consew 206.  When funds allow, having both is really nice.  Or maybe get a used older walking foot like I did.  There's no replacement for the larger needle system on the 441's (you can't get a #26 for the Consew), and I can tell you it doesn't take all that much to bump a 135x17 off track enough to miss a stitch or smash the point into the dawg - even with something light like 8 layers of 500D nylon.

[Wizcrafts]

Jim;

I split the thread ranges between the machines based on what they each are designed to handle most efficiently.

Upholstery grade walking foot machines are made with upholstery thread in mind. That translates into sizes 69, 92 and sometimes 138. The 1.75" long needles are strong enough to not get deflected too easily, which can happen to a #16 or 18 needle. These machines max out at 3/8" of material and have dozens of accessory presser feet available in sets that are relatively inexpensive. There are edge guides, binders and folders of all kinds available. Many, like the Consew 206RB-5 have a large M style bobbin that holds enough #138 thread to sew at least a dozen and possibly 15 belts, rifle slings, or guitar straps.

While the upholstery class machines are maxed out, or close to maxing out with #138 thread, the 441 machines are just coming into their own with that thread. Yes, while you "can" load them with #92 and sometimes #69 thread, the super long System 7x3 needles in sizes 18 and 19 are very easily deflected and can bend or break without much warning. They also tend to flex under load as you sew and are pulled hard left by the previous stitches. This pulls them farther away from the hook and makes skipped stitches a possibility. Further, there are no System 794 leather point needles commonly sold in the US market under a #23 (160). That is a good needle to use with #138 thread and even with 138 in the bobbin and 207 on top.

I think it is prudent to use these machines in their sweet spots as much as possible. Greater machines can be dumbed down to sew with thin needles and thread as long as you back off the tensions to reduce deflection at the eye of the needle.

All of this in just my opinion and how I do things with the (currently) 6 industrial sewing machines in my leather shop.

[JimTimber]

I guess I wouldn't look at it as "dumbing down" per se, but being able to do it is an attribute of benefit even if it's not technically ideal.

I certainly appreciate your division of labor methodology and agree that when you have better options the task dictates what gets utilized.  Sometimes we only have a hammer, so nail or screw it's getting hit.

 

[bikermutt07]

So, while the consew will handle 207 that is outside of it's sweet spot and not recommended?

Thanks for the help, guys.

[Wizcrafts]

4 hours ago, bikermutt07 said:

So, while the consew will handle 207 that is outside of it's sweet spot and not recommended?

Thanks for the help, guys.

That is correct. Your particular machine may or may not sew with #207, depending on how the hook has been set up and adjusted. You can buy one spool of #207 to try it out. You'll need at least a #23 needle (#207 just on top), with a #24 being more suited to the task (with #207 in bobbin also). A needle that size requires a lot of torque to punch through veg-tan leather. The pounding and stress on the needlebar and take-up crankshafts may be severe. Softer leather or vinyl wouldn't present as much resistance, which we all know is futile. ;-)

 

[bikermutt07]

Thanks Wiz.

[dikman]

16 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

 resistance, which we all know is futile. ;-)

 

[Colt W Knight]

I have a consew 206, and I can't get it to sew #207 regardless of what I adjust. 

[bikermutt07]

After looking at some thread comparisons I have a new question.... After using some proper hand sewing thread at .6, .8, and 1.0mm I understand these are all larger than anything I could use on the consew.

So, if 416 thread is only about .8mm thick and I like that size thread for my smaller projects, is there any reason I can't sew a wallet or journal on a 4500? Or even using 277 or 346? Is a wallet just too thin?

Edited March 17, 2017 by bikermutt07

[brmax]

No reason that i can see. I think you know well enough and possibly with more insight. That from hand sewing the art of having the knot or loc in the center of the stitch is the ideal so if that is concealed alls good. 

Floyd

[Wizcrafts]

40 minutes ago, bikermutt07 said:

After looking at some thread comparisons I have a new question....

If 416 thread is only about .8mm thick and I like that size thread for my smaller projects, is there any reason I can't sew a wallet or journal on a 4500? Or even using 277 or 346? Is a wallet just too thin?

You can't bury the lockstitch knots from #415 thread in leather thinner than about 12 to 14 ounces. Light colors and white thread will fold easier than dark blue and black thread. So, you might could bury the knots of white #415 in as little as 10 ounces, if the tensions and holes are perfect.

The reason you cannot equate hand sewing thread to machine sewn thread is because with hand sewing you usually do a saddle stitch with two needles sewing over and under. There are no knots to bury and the stitches look perfect on both sides. In contrast, 0.8mm bonded thread that forms a lockstitch knot will have a working diameter of up to 1.6mm and will require a #26 or 27 needle to poke a wide enough hole to allow the knots to be pulled up sufficiently into the leather.

[bikermutt07]

5 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

You can't bury the lockstitch knots from #415 thread in leather thinner than about 12 to 14 ounces. Light colors and white thread will fold easier than dark blue and black thread. So, you might could bury the knots of white #415 in as little as 10 ounces, if the tensions and holes are perfect.

The reason you cannot equate hand sewing thread to machine sewn thread is because with hand sewing you usually do a saddle stitch with two needles sewing over and under. There are no knots to bury and the stitches look perfect on both sides. In contrast, 0.8mm bonded thread that forms a lockstitch knot will have a working diameter of up to 1.6mm and will require a #26 or 27 needle to poke a wide enough hole to allow the knots to be pulled up sufficiently into the leather.

Thank you for educating my ignorance, once again. Be patient with me, I'll get there.

Just for information purposes, I have no practical knowledge on a sewing machine. I have never used one and have only seen a real cylinder arm once.

But, I have been reading plenty.

[JimTimber]

Some of the stuff I'm sewing is thinner than leather, and the only problem I've had is that it gets fickle to center the knots when dealing with really thin stuff or when you're stacking row after row of stitches doing webbing for buckles.  The tension needs to be higher for the second pass/back stitch than when running though fresh material so the first few stitches have too much top tension or the last row of bottom stitches will have loops.  This might be fixable with a bigger needle, but I haven't tried that yet.

Is there a dealer around, or another member here local to you?  Get some exposure to the real deal in person if you're not sure about if it'll fit your needs.

My 211G gave me more trouble with 46 thread than my 441 ever has with 69 (keep in mind, I'm a noob too).  I had to come up with a new threading method to keep it in the tension disks (Thanks Wiz!).