Eco-flo dye error (Eco-Flo Coal Black)

[Regis]

I am making a molded holster. "Thought I was being smart by dying inside before sewing. and for some reason ( :ranting: ) I used eco black. Dyed fine and dried for 5 days before I got around to molding it. Wet it under sink and dye went everywhere. It ran like,,,,,,,,well, like dye running down the drain.

This absolutely convinced me NOT to use the eco dyes on anything that will get very wet. I know it didn't have any protective coating but, for anyting that will get real wet, it would need to "absolutely water proofed".

Actually I'm glad I found out now BEFORE my neighbor returned it with dye running down his pants cuz he slipped and got holster soaked.

Any suggestions where to go from here? Happens to be on a matched OWB pair of 1911's. Are the holsters just throw-aways? I think so unless someone has sealer or cleanup idea.

[eagle]

I am making a molded holster. "Thought I was being smart by dying inside before sewing. and for some reason ( :ranting: ) I used eco black. Dyed fine and dried for 5 days before I got around to molding it. Wet it under sink and dye went everywhere. It ran like,,,,,,,,well, like dye running down the drain.

This absolutely convinced me NOT to use the eco dyes on anything that will get very wet. I know it didn't have any protective coating but, for anyting that will get real wet, it would need to "absolutely water proofed".

Actually I'm glad I found out now BEFORE my neighbor returned it with dye running down his pants cuz he slipped and got holster soaked.

Any suggestions where to go from here? Happens to be on a matched OWB pair of 1911's. Are the holsters just throw-aways? I think so unless someone has sealer or cleanup idea.

[Jordan]

only thing I can think of is to use a solvent or oil based dye then clearcoat of acrylic. Eco is a H2O based dye so even sweat would make it run. But I sweat acid I think cause it even eats the finish off my eyeglasses and destroys the neckline of any shirt I own after a couple of months.

[whinewine]

Regis, all eco flow stuff is water based, even the super shene, before it dries. That's the problem. That's the flaw. The stuff runs. It runs badly...

The wackos demand '...safe...' '...environment friendly...' stuff (which I really don't have a problem with, & yes, I do like some of the eco flow stuff & yes, I do use a lot of their colored hi-liters & all-in-ones), but I am against all the good stuff being banned, too. I mean, c'mon: you know barge stinks & you know spirit dyes have fumes & they should only be used with proper ventilation & it'll hurt you if you try to drink it, & if you're too stupid to figure it out or too stupid to keep it secured from the kids, then maybe, perhaps, you shouldn't be allowed to play with chemicals. Maybe, instead of banning these things, perhaps there should be an IQ test associated with purchasing chemicals. Maybe, while we're at it, have the people we elect (& also the people who vote, too) take an IQ test, also. I'm sure that'll knock a loadful outta the box right from the start...

Sorry, I ramble.

[bcurrier]

I think the issues are more environmental than health concerns (not to minimize the latter, of course). You'd think there has to a fixative that would work with water-based stuff, though.

Bill

[whinewine]

You'd think there has to a fixative that would work with water-based stuff, though.

Bill

Unfortunately, there isn't. Once it's dry, super shene & neatlac & several other products can seal it, but water is the only common substance that will allow leather to stretch & be form-fitted to an object or a mold, & if you try to seal it beforehand, the leather can't absorb water. Water based products will run in the presence of water, pure & simple.

[abn]

This is all very true. I'm a big proponent of the Eco-Flo dyes and Satin Shene, but I'm only making belts, wallets, covers, etc. With a couple of coats of Satin Shene on top, Eco-Flo dyes are water resistant -- which means occasional exposure to a few drops of rain, etc. I've never had a problem with Eco-Flo under those circumstances.

BUT, if I was building something that might get significant exposure to water like a holster or a motorcycle seat, etc., I think continuing to use spirit dyes makes sense. But I still wouldn't dye before molding. If you want the inside of the holster to be black, I'd either use a dauber post-construction, or I'd think about a dip-dye method...

Just my 2 cents! (If it's even worth that much!) :pirate2:

Alex

[bcurrier]

Yeah, I understand the basic syndrome, which is that the dye has to be soluble in water in order for water to act as the carrier into the leather. As a result, re-wetting just re-dissolves the dye and it runs all over. What I meant by a "fixative" is a curing agent that changes the dye into a non water-soluble form. There's a number of problems in delivering something like that, not the least of which is that it exchanges the solvent dye problem with a curing agent problem.

Hmmm - maybe the answer is to figure out how to make your own alcohol-based dyes???...

Bill

[wolvenstien]

Hmmm - maybe the answer is to figure out how to make your own alcohol-based dyes???...

Bill

Shouldnt be too hard... leather folks been making thier own dyes long before tandy and the other businesses started doing it for us.....

[abn]

Well, if you don't have a California address, you should still be able to get ahold of the old alcohol-based Fiebing's Leather Dyes. Tandy still sells them, as do others...

[TwinOaks]

Alchohol based....doesn't alchohol mix with water? Could you leave a bottle of eco open and let some of the water evaporate out of it then add isopropyl back to it? Hmmmm....experiment time. :alarm: :alarm:

[bcurrier]

The problem is that the dyestuff itself is water soluble. So even if you dry it out and re-dissolve in alcohol for application, when the dyed goods get wet, the dye will run.

Bill

[AlcoveShop]

Yeah, I understand the basic syndrome, which is that the dye has to be soluble in water in order for water to act as the carrier into the leather. As a result, re-wetting just re-dissolves the dye and it runs all over. What I meant by a "fixative" is a curing agent that changes the dye into a non water-soluble form. There's a number of problems in delivering something like that, not the least of which is that it exchanges the solvent dye problem with a curing agent problem.

Hmmm - maybe the answer is to figure out how to make your own alcohol-based dyes???...

Bill

If you think about it, Fiebings already has the process down pat; if you cant buy them directly, seek out a distributor (as some have mentioned). Problems of this nature tied to the finicky nature of some "ahem" leathers made me dump that line completely, and just distribute for Fiebings and Dyo. Fiebings has a water based line as well if you really need it.

[steveb]

This is all very true. I'm a big proponent of the Eco-Flo dyes and Satin Shene, but I'm only making belts, wallets, covers, etc. With a couple of coats of Satin Shene on top, Eco-Flo dyes are water resistant -- which means occasional exposure to a few drops of rain, etc. I've never had a problem with Eco-Flo under those circumstances.

BUT, if I was building something that might get significant exposure to water like a holster or a motorcycle seat, etc., I think continuing to use spirit dyes makes sense. But I still wouldn't dye before molding. If you want the inside of the holster to be black, I'd either use a dauber post-construction, or I'd think about a dip-dye method...

Just my 2 cents! (If it's even worth that much!) :pirate2:

Alex

well i dont think it is appropriate for belts either...I dont know about you -

but in the summer - when on my bike in the heat or when workign outside,

i've sweat through my jeans many times...i dont think id want a black stripe around my waist!!

steveb

[David]

I don't see why the same old Neat Lac solution wouldn't work here too. And it might be a project saver for you. Neat Lac is flexible, soaks into the leather and binds the dye to the leather.

Give it a try.

Better yet....dont use black....ha ha I know that sometimes you just need it.

Dave

[abn]

well i dont think it is appropriate for belts either...I dont know about you -

but in the summer - when on my bike in the heat or when workign outside,

i've sweat through my jeans many times...i dont think id want a black stripe around my waist!!

steveb

I don't finish the inside of a belt. I've never really seen the need, and I like the soft knap of the flesh side anyway... So that's not really a problem for me.

[Shorts]

Well, if you don't have a California address, you should still be able to get ahold of the old alcohol-based Fiebing's Leather Dyes. Tandy still sells them, as do others...

The problem is that the dyestuff itself is water soluble. So even if you dry it out and re-dissolve in alcohol for application, when the dyed goods get wet, the dye will run.

Bill

Well I'm currently going over this predicatment now. Ecoflo was only dye I could get ahold of so I'm stuck. I suppose one could combine the dye and mold process here, which would work fine for holsters which haven't been built, molded and dried waiting for a dye and seal.

It is with these holsters that are still raw, yet formed that I'm wondering if the suggestion by abn would work. Would denatured alcohol work as the medium for the dye application which would leave the molding in tact?? Possibly application by an airbrush?

[Rawhide]

The problem is that the dyestuff itself is water soluble. So even if you dry it out and re-dissolve in alcohol for application, when the dyed goods get wet, the dye will run.

Bill

That's one of the problems as well, it's not dyestuffs like spirit dye, it's pigment power.

And, you can use solvent to dilute it, this will help it dry faster between coats. However, it will still run when wet.

Marlon

[Shorts]

That's one of the problems as well, it's not dyestuffs like spirit dye, it's pigment power.

And, you can use solvent to dilute it, this will help it dry faster between coats. However, it will still run when wet.

Marlon

Is that including after a top coat is applied?

Anyone familiar with the mix ratio to use with denatured alcohol?

Edited April 20, 2008 by Shorts

[Ian]

I'm wondering, did all the dye wash out? If you can rinse it until the leather runs clear, couldn't you mold it, the re-dye it with spirit dye once it dries? Then apply your finish?

[Shorts]

I'm wondering, did all the dye wash out? If you can rinse it until the leather runs clear, couldn't you mold it, the re-dye it with spirit dye once it dries? Then apply your finish?

Yes, you can redye, assuming you have the other types of dye on hand. I think the OP was miffed that after dyeing he went back to finish the holster and it bled on him so he had to redo that step again. I'd be kicking myself too! lol

The idea behind these water-based dyes is they're easy to work with and nontoxic so they're very easy to get/ship. However, depending on what projects one is using them on, you have to think long and hard 1) will I be able to use this dye effectively? and 2) how do I change my process to accomodate it? I think that's the toughest thing since once you have your process down on how you make your projects, it takes some thought to catch yourself instead of just proceeding forward with normal. Have to change things up after setting a regimene.

[Duke]

I agree with ABN, wetmold first then dye after its dry. then use a finish to waterproof it. neat-lac or saddle-lac if it needs to be flexable. better yet, use the vinagar and rust trick that was posted on here a few weeks ago. from what I understand, that doesnt bleed.

[Hennessy]

dying black oil dye.this works ,on clean lea surface oil, dry ovnite,neatlac surface, dry .then black oil dye, dry, buff ,dye agin if needed,then lac agin.little or none rub off,this put new hope in me fer sure adios peter john

[singteck]

Never tried Eco-flo. I would only use Professional Oil Dye if I can get it. But I can't.

I have since made my own dye. I can buy the dye powder and disolve them in spirit. The same dye powder will disolve in water as well as thinner.

Dye + thinner = the worst problem with bleeding I have encountered.

Dye + water = will bleed but not as bad as dye + thinner.

Dye + spirit = the least bleeding but it will still bleed.

To stop the dye from bleeding, I would either apply a thin coat of shellac or a wax mixture that contains lanolin.

The dye that is produced with spirit is very much like the Professional Oil dye. I think there might be some other mixture in it that prevents the dye from bleeding. I am thinking it could be shellac but I am not sure.

singteck

[SusanC]

I just told my hubby to never let me buy Eco-flo black again, I made the mistake of dying a knife case first and then lacing, my hands and my clothes are both black. This dye has been on the leather for over 3 weeks, so I know it's dry. I have sealed it once and am going to seal it again before I send it to it's new owner. It's really embarrassing to have to explain to someone why the black dye has transferred to everything it has touched. No more eco-flo black for me!

I have also used the vinegar method and it works great, no transfer at all even without sealant. But why you ask did I used the eco-flo instead of the vinegaroon on the knife case? Well, vinegaroon smells like vinegar but I have also noticed from the tool cases that I made for myself, even after rinsing well, the tool tends to want to rust after being placed in the case. I usually oil up my pliers and then place them in the case (one time has been enough) and that seems to take care of the rust problem, I just didn't want to chance it on a clients favorite knife.