Saddle lac peeling

[Eldorado]

Need some help from the experts.  I've been having trouble with Saddlelac literally peeling off my work. It's happened on a couple of sporran flaps and it recently failed completely on a high dollar tooled pirate baldric.  Anywhere the leather flexed it just came up like plastic wrap.  I finished scraping the rest with my fingernail, polished-in some saddle soap, and then put on a very light coat of Fiebings Leathersheen.  It didnt come off in the areas of the tooling, just the open spaces.  The baldric is vegtan, fiebings USMC black alcohol dye, light coat of neetsfoot oil), coat of saddle lac as a resist, thinned gold acrylic paint as antiquing - wiped off, let dry, and then one more coat of saddle lac.

I initially thought it was the neetsfoot oil fighting the saddlelac, but it happened even on spots where I didnt oil it.  I've used Leathersheen for years and it failed like this on something about a year ago, so I switched to saddlelac.  Makes me think something else is going on with the leather, the dye, or something.  I'm just spraying it on out of the can. The saddlelac failed on both the attached pouches.  I'm wondering if it might have to do with the Fiebings black.  I buff it before spraying and didnt used to have this kind of trouble.  Did they change the formula?  

I could use some insight as to why its happening and also perhaps some suggestions as to another sealer.  I use resolene painted on the inside of the leather, but attempts at using it on the top (admittedly full strength) have resulted in quick flaking.  I like a fairly shiny product since they seem to sell in the shop more quickly than flat simply-buffed finishes.

Any help is appreciated. 

 

P. Coleman

Tudor Rose Leather Workshop

 

 

 

[NVLeatherWorx]

The lacquer products don't do too well over anything acrylic that has been applied as a full coating as it doesn't have anything porous to get into.  I have never used the spray version as I have always used the Neat-Lac version which is applied via sheep's wool; never had any problems with is in over 40 years.  It is actually called Clear-Lac now but it is the same product as the original, just a different name now.

[Eldorado]

Hmmm, does it crack on things like belts and straps that flex.  

To be clear, the saddle lac didn't scrape off on the gold acrylic antiquing, just in the open flat bits of un-tooled black.  The antiquing looks like this.

 

[NVLeatherWorx]

I have never had it crack, flake, or peel on a belt nor any other item either.  I have found that spray/aerosol versions of things do not work as well as the hand applied versions do; it may have something to do with the propellant itself causing the lacquer to start drying immediately before contact with the leather.  Or you just got a bad batch of product (which does happen).

[Northmount]

Or it is being applied too thick.  I did that with Neat Lac many years ago.  Much better to put it on thin.  If more protection is required, possibly another thin coat after the first has dried well.

Another possibility is the leather wasn't dry yet after what ever previous work was done, wet from tooling, wet dye, ... allow to dry 24 hours first.

Tom

[YinTx]

I just had this happen to me, on leather that was not dyed, and had dried for several days after stamping.  I sprayed on a very light coating, let it dry for a couple of days, put on some Fiebeng's antique, wiped it off, let it dry for a few days, put resolene over the top to seal it.  Two days later, I came back to them so I could burnish edges, and it just peeled off in really thin sheets as I was working the edges.  Really disappointing.  Add it to the list of items that fail miserably as a resist:  Resolene, Tan Kote, Bag Kote, Saddle Lac, Angelus Acrylic finish, Eco Flow Matte Finish, etc.

And I really had my hopes up as it actually worked as a resist to the antique, allowing it to fill in low spots and tool marks, but wiping fairly well off of high spots and smooth areas.

If I can't find anything that works, I'm going to have to throw all of my antiques into the garbage bin along with all of my stamping and carving tools.

YinTx

[NVLeatherWorx]

Could the layer that peeled off be the Resolene?  Applying a water-based acrylic over a layer of lacquer seems to me to be counterproductive as the lacquer is a finish just as the Resolene is a finish.  I have never used anything else OVER a lacquer finish and have never had any issues with the lacquer failing and peeling.

[YinTx]

Haha you could be right Richard.  I'm feeling a bit of an idiot here, because I could swear I saw an instructional from one of our respected experienced leatherworkers talking about putting resolene on as a final finish to seal in the antique paste, even after using Saddle Lac.  It seemed odd to me at the moment to mix the two products, but I watched it twice to be sure, and that's what it said, so I did it.  It even mentioned that the resolene would pull up some of the antique, but not to worry!

Now for the life of me I can't find the reference I used so I could put it here, so I'm going to go with - I didn't hear right, and that is not what they said to do.

 So if I am using Saddle Lac as the resist, then antique paste, should I be spraying Saddle Lac on top of the resist, or using something else like Tan Kote, which is resin based?

I have a learning piece all tooled  screwed up, antiqued and ready for a final finish, so I'm prepped to experiment with suggestions!

Thanks for your help,

YinTx

[NVLeatherWorx]

 

Haha you could be right Richard.  I'm feeling a bit of an idiot here, because I could swear I saw an instructional from one of our respected experienced leatherworkers talking about putting resolene on as a final finish to seal in the antique paste, even after using Saddle Lac.  It seemed odd to me at the moment to mix the two products, but I watched it twice to be sure, and that's what it said, so I did it.  It even mentioned that the resolene would pull up some of the antique, but not to worry!

Now for the life of me I can't find the reference I used so I could put it here, so I'm going to go with - I didn't hear right, and that is not what they said to do.

 So if I am using Saddle Lac as the resist, then antique paste, should I be spraying Saddle Lac on top of the resist, or using something else like Tan Kote, which is resin based?

I have a learning piece all tooled  screwed up, antiqued and ready for a final finish, so I'm prepped to experiment with suggestions!

Thanks for your help,

YinTx

Anytime I use lacquer as the resist I then use that same product as my final coat over the top.  That keeps my finish the same as my "base" (so to speak) and I never had an issue with it before.  In fact, there was a time when we only used lacquer as the top finish as there weren't any of these other products.  Once the water-based products started hitting the market is when all of the issues with finishes started happening.  I do the same with Resolene; if I use it as a resist then I use it as the final finish so as to not create an incompatibility issue.  

I am quite sure that you actually did get that info from one of of the many experienced leatherworkers here as I have run across some YouTube videos that lay out various techniques but these should all be taken in very cautiously as these experienced leatherworkers haven't necessarily been doing this as long as some of us others so the level of experience is relatively relative here.  I have been doing this for over 40 years and would never even think to do a large number of the things that are suggested or passed on as they don't make sense to me; I learned this trade from the Old School Masters back in the day and what they have taught me has held true and solid over these years without issue or question.  Some may call me a traditionalist or a purist but if it ain't broke there ain't nothing to fix and why tinker with what has been working without issue for the past 100 years (or even more)?  I call it mastering your craft and knowing your trade.

[YinTx]

Richard,

Thanks for the info.  I've tried the following, it is in final drying:  Dye, neatsfoot, saddle lac, Angelus acrylic antique.  It is holding nicely, wondering if I need to put another layer of saddle lac on top of the acrylic antique?  I had two pieces, one has it one does not.  Both seem ok so far, but not 100% dry yet on the last saddle lac coating.  I tried putting water on the antique by itself, nothing came off, seems pretty set.

I have another test run going using 2 very heavy coats of Angelus High Gloss acrylic finisher.  I'll put the Angelus acrylic antique over that, then more acrylic finisher and see how that works out.  I must say these are all super shiny finishes, not my favorite look for leather - makes it look like plastic instead of leather.  I much prefer the Aussie look but that does nothing for resist!

I do appreciate your suggestions, as I don't have the luxury of apprenticeship, and have to glean what I can from whatever sources I can.  As many of us these days are, I am self taught, and as such have to go through the trial phases to relearn/discover what others may have figured out 100 years ago.  The plethora of misinformation and products available makes this process even more painful.  Not to mention expensive.

I have tried to acquire books etc. to assist, but even those are lacking what you would learn in an operating shop.  It seems everyday I see someone doing something that might appear mundane to them and I wonder why the $$%@$ didn't I think of that before, because it would have saved me so much time and frustration!  Folks like Gmace and RockyAussie and yourself sharing videos and photos  of work in progress etc is infinitely useful, in spite of the negative backlash others may give for "all those YouTube Videos" out there.  I even took some negative responses just for posting a really short video showing me stitching for someone that had requested it.  The requestor was happy, others seemed perturbed that there would be a video made by someone other than Nigel or Ian showing hand stitching.

Anyhow, off of the soap box, and many thanks.

YinTx

[KimL]

Hi,

Sorry to pop in on this thread, I have a similar situation.  So, I've had an issue with the Resolene peeling and dye bleeding through the Resolene I put on my "new-to-me" dressage saddle. 

To start, this is my first attempt to strip/dye/finish anything leather (not a good place to start, such a large and important piece to me).

I used the Fiebings' Deglazer, followed by their black leather dye.  But, the liquid dye left a completely different black from the rest of the saddle, I had to go with a different product to create a more uniform color (Fortivo Leather & Vinyl Recoloring Balm which is more of a cream than a liquid).  I then used a foam brush to put 2 thin coats of the Resolene on per the instructions and let dry 24 hours.  I then took it to the barn for a test ride.  I ended up with black dye on my breeches and peeling on the bottom of both flaps.

I have since touched up the saddle to make sure I have the everything re-covered with the Resolene, and I don't plan to ride in the saddle until next Sat.  So, it will have 6 full days to dry this time.

But, the Resolene has made the saddle ULTRA glossy; and I only used 2 coats (3 now since I had to fix the peeling).

So, 2 questions:

1 - If the Resolene doesn't peel again after my next ride, is there something I can do to dull the shininess?

2 - If the Resolene does peel again after my next ride, how easy would it be to just strip everything off the seat and flaps and start over?