Saddle Lac Sadness

[YinTx]

I have been on a bit of a quest to get a good antique resist, but with no luck.  I had thought the peeling issue I had might have had something to do with putting acrylic on top of saddle lac, but it became even worse when I put Saddle Lac on top of Saddle Lac.  Here is my order of operations as it were:

Tool

Dye - wait a day

Neatsfoot - wait a day

Aussie (on occasion) - sometimes add a bit of heat to ensure it goes in, wait a day

Saddle Lac - wait a day

2nd coat Saddle Lac - wait a day

Fiebings Antique Paste - Sheridan Brown - wipe off excess immediately, let dry 10 mins, buff some, dry some, buff some, until I'm happy with the highlights.  wait a day (at this point, the paste seems to turn chalky white - I don't like it, it stays that way after the last coat of Saddle Lac.  I have taken to coating it before it is completely dry to avoid this issue - this timing has not had any impact on the final results either way.

Saddle Lac - wait a day

Saddle Lac - wait a day

This means I can't get any item done in less than 7 or 8 days due to all the waiting, and then - - - - it peels, and goes into the garbage bin.

Someone please let me know which of these steps is wrong!?

Here is a photo of some small basketweave I did on a keychain that really exaggerates the peeling.  I've had it on large items that don't bend as well.  

I enjoy tooling, but I am not having any luck with resists and finishes.  Acrylic resists simply don't work at all, and the only finish that actually resists the antique peels horribly.

YinTx

[terrymac]

, First thing to do is to get yourself from Clearlac (old original Neatlac).  You can get it thru Springfield Leather and second thing is throw away the Neatsfoot and get yourself some "Bee's Natural Saddle Oil' or some extra virgin olive oil.  I personally like the saddle oil, but others prefer the other.  You are not too far off in your steps  You just don't need so many redundant steps  After you dyed the background and applied oil, let it dry ,  Use some wool shearing to apply a light coat of Clearlac, working it in to the leather,  Don't goop it on.  Depending on the amount of resist desired, you may wish to apply a second coat and let dry.  Tandy sells some synthetic wool pads that work quite well, and you can cut them in half.  Again using the wool pads, apply your Fiebings Antique paste, and now you can goop it on.  You do not have to wait to start removing the excess, just continue using the wool pads to wipe off, changing wool pads as they fill up with paste.  Using wool pads is the only way of getting the excess out of tooling marks and cuts.  This is where a lot people mess up the piece and end up looking like mud puddles  I will then apply a final coat of Clearlac for a finish.  Just remember Saddle Lac and Clearlac are totally different products.  If you want to see some finished products using this system, look at Hidepounder's work.  There is a really good video by Keith Valley which also demonstrates this process.  I wish I had a dollar for every saddle that has been finished like this, I could go fishing all summer 

Hope this helps,

Terry

[YinTx]

Terrymac,

Thanks a lot for the detail.  I have a can of Clear Lac, will try.  Just came across some other threads on Saddle Lac, seems to be the same ol issue.  Not sure what the heck its good for if it peels and cracks so much?

 Also found a mention of ONAT- Oil, Neat-Lac, Antique, Tan Kote.  I'll give that process a try. (So now it's OCAT).

YinTx

[terrymac]

Just be aware Tan Kote will lift some of the color of the Fiebings Antique Pase.  It can be used to dilute the paste.  As a normal practice, I don't use it unless there is a dirty looking spot on the untooled area of the leather and it will clean it up  Keith Valley, mentioned earlier, does use it as a matter of practce.  Just play with it and see what you like.

Glad it helped,

Terry

Edited May 26, 2017 by terrymac

[pnj]

my guess is you're putting it on too heavy?

I'm more interested in how or why acrylic (painted on?) doesn't work as a resist for you? Do you have pictures of your items that show it not working? I have noticed that no matter how many coats I do, the antique will still discolor the resist a little bit. But i can absolutely wipe off most of the antique paste. 

[YinTx]

I did this in two parts, since I was having such an issue already.  The top section has already been done.  The bottom section was antique applied, and immediately attempt to wipe off.  Not happening!!! Had to scrub the heck out of it fast with a wet rag to get any of it to let go.  This was after several layers of Angelus Acrylic for the resist.  I took this picture about 10 seconds after putting the resist on and trying to wipe it off.  As you can see, still shiny wet.

YinTx

 

[NVLeatherWorx]

10 hours ago, pnj said:

my guess is you're putting it on too heavy?

I'm more interested in how or why acrylic (painted on?) doesn't work as a resist for you? Do you have pictures of your items that show it not working? I have noticed that no matter how many coats I do, the antique will still discolor the resist a little bit. But i can absolutely wipe off most of the antique paste. 

Acrylic is less resistant to the oils/spirits contained within the Fiebing's Antique Paste so that is why you will see discoloration; it works great with water-based products though as you can take a damp sponge and drag it across the finish to pull up any extra.  All of the products that you use need to be compatible with the rest when doing things like trying to highlight or resist.  You can use acrylic as a final sealer on anything you want though, just not as a resist for everything.

[NVLeatherWorx]

On 5/25/2017 at 10:26 PM, YinTx said:

I have been on a bit of a quest to get a good antique resist, but with no luck.  I had thought the peeling issue I had might have had something to do with putting acrylic on top of saddle lac, but it became even worse when I put Saddle Lac on top of Saddle Lac.  Here is my order of operations as it were:

Tool

Dye - wait a day

Neatsfoot - wait a day

Aussie (on occasion) - sometimes add a bit of heat to ensure it goes in, wait a day

Saddle Lac - wait a day

2nd coat Saddle Lac - wait a day

Fiebings Antique Paste - Sheridan Brown - wipe off excess immediately, let dry 10 mins, buff some, dry some, buff some, until I'm happy with the highlights.  wait a day (at this point, the paste seems to turn chalky white - I don't like it, it stays that way after the last coat of Saddle Lac.  I have taken to coating it before it is completely dry to avoid this issue - this timing has not had any impact on the final results either way.

Saddle Lac - wait a day

Saddle Lac - wait a day

This means I can't get any item done in less than 7 or 8 days due to all the waiting, and then - - - - it peels, and goes into the garbage bin.

Someone please let me know which of these steps is wrong!?

Here is a photo of some small basketweave I did on a keychain that really exaggerates the peeling.  I've had it on large items that don't bend as well.  

I enjoy tooling, but I am not having any luck with resists and finishes.  Acrylic resists simply don't work at all, and the only finish that actually resists the antique peels horribly.

YinTx

First of all, you have applied two conditioning treatments before your first Saddle Lac, just do the NFO and let it sit for a day before you apply your first lacquer and then only once.  Your Antique paste should not be turning chalky white (or any other color than what it is) regardless of where it is located/collecting so there is something wrong with one of the products you are using that is causing this. The finishing of two coatings of Saddle Lac is again too much, once should do.  I can tell from the photo that you have provided that it is on very thick because the finish looks like glass and it shouldn't be that glaring.  The peeling is a combination of too much lacquer and too much conditioner which hasn't allowed penetration.  And, as has already been suggested, dump the Saddle Lac and start using the Clear Lac.  I have been using it for over 40 years (started when it was still Neat Lac) and have never found a reason to replace it nor a product that could (and I test all of the new stuff when it comes out just to see where it may fit in my processes).  Just can't find myself to quit using something that works.

[YinTx]

1 hour ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

Acrylic is less resistant to the oils/spirits contained within the Fiebing's Antique Paste so that is why you will see discoloration; it works great with water-based products though as you can take a damp sponge and drag it across the finish to pull up any extra.  All of the products that you use need to be compatible with the rest when doing things like trying to highlight or resist.  You can use acrylic as a final sealer on anything you want though, just not as a resist for everything.

In the example given with the "Book of Books" cover, I used Angelus acrylic for resist, and Angelus acrylic antique. It took a damp rag and a lot of scrubbing to get the resist off.    Good to know about the ability to apply acrylic as a final sealer on anything.  I'll give it a try sometime.

For now, I have a trial run going with some basket weave, and here is the process I am following:

DOPCAT:  Dye (Fiebeng's Pro Oil), Oil (Neatsfoot), Paint (decorative - Angelus Acrylic paint), Clear-Lac, Antique (Fiebeng's Antique paste, Angelus Acrylic), Tan-Kote.

I am ditching the Aussie for now.  Today is the "Clear-Lac" step.  I'll see how it goes!

YinTx

[JLSleather]

Tan-Kote has been used to thin antique paste for years, even though Fiebings had it right on the label of the paste -- DO NOT MIX WITH TAN KOTE.  People do what they do.

It does look like your Saddle-Lac went on pretty heavy.  I use it one some belts, in three very light coats, over the course of a day.  No problems with cracking or peeling.  Note that once I got a can that had "something" wrong with it.. came out heavy, and impossible to apply thin coats.  Replaced that can, and back to normal (never did know WHY).

[YinTx]

JLS,

Since I don't have a reference point, could be on way too heavy.  Could be the can, too, on account of I don't have a reference point.  Or perhaps a bit of both.  I don't think I'll drop any $$ on another can to find out, since so many have indicated it is not the product for this job.  

Just tried the Clear Lac for the first time, not shiny at all.  Just soaked right into the leather.  Has me a bit worried about it's ability to resist, or my application technique.  It also completely wiped off the acrylic paint, and pulled out the Fiebeng's Pro oil dye, resulting in a lighter color.  Perhaps a gentle soft brush instead to apply it next time will help.  All a learning experience for me.

Should I be using 2 coats of Clear Lac, or is one enough before antiquing?

YinTx

[NVLeatherWorx]

35 minutes ago, YinTx said:

JLS,

Since I don't have a reference point, could be on way too heavy.  Could be the can, too, on account of I don't have a reference point.  Or perhaps a bit of both.  I don't think I'll drop any $$ on another can to find out, since so many have indicated it is not the product for this job.  

Just tried the Clear Lac for the first time, not shiny at all.  Just soaked right into the leather.  Has me a bit worried about it's ability to resist, or my application technique.  It also completely wiped off the acrylic paint, and pulled out the Fiebeng's Pro oil dye, resulting in a lighter color.  Perhaps a gentle soft brush instead to apply it next time will help.  All a learning experience for me.

Should I be using 2 coats of Clear Lac, or is one enough before antiquing?

YinTx

Acrylic paints automatically resist against Antique and should always be applied over the base color if you are using dye as a base so as to NOT allow it to be pulled off with the application of anything else.  You only resist those areas that do not have any acrylic coloring over them but if they are dyed color you need to apply a resist.  I never apply Clear Lac with a sheep's wool or other method unless it is being used as the overall finish; always apply to areas of resist with an artists brush.  You can apply two coats if you desire but do not apply heavily.  Clear Lac is supposed to soak into the leather, that is how it resists.

If you really want to learn how to use all of these things in proper fashion you need to get your hands on any of Al Stohlman's books about coloring leather.  They go into great detail on how to blend, resist, block, etc. and are more valuable than any other books on the market, especially from today's less experienced information providers.

[YinTx]

NVLeatherWorx,

Again, thanks for sharing all that detail. I have several of Stohlman's books, but was unaware he had on on coloring leather.  I'll see if I can find it.

By artist's brush, do you mean like a paint brush, or an airbrush?

YinTx

[NVLeatherWorx]

21 hours ago, YinTx said:

NVLeatherWorx,

Again, thanks for sharing all that detail. I have several of Stohlman's books, but was unaware he had on on coloring leather.  I'll see if I can find it.

By artist's brush, do you mean like a paint brush, or an airbrush?

YinTx

Get yourself a collection of paint brushes with varied sizes and make sure that they are nylon as it is easier to clean off when you are finished with the lacquer.

[YinTx]

Got the  book,  got the paint brushes, and did some work with only Clear-Lac.  Worked almost too good- couldn't keep the antique down in the stamping from coming out when I lightly wiped the piece down after antique!  So I supposed you could call that success.  Now to try Clear-Lac on parts of un-dyed leather, then antiquing the whole piece for that "two tone" look!  anyhow, here are some images of the results, much improved, thank you everyone for alleviating my frustrations!

For anyone reading this trying to figure out why they can't get antiquing to work how you think it should, here is the process I've landed on, tried and true by so many others in the past as mentioned:  

DOPCAC:  Dye (Fiebeng's Pro Oil), Oil (Neatsfoot), Paint (decorative - Angelus Acrylic paint), Clear-Lac, Antique (Fiebeng's Antique paste, Angelus Acrylic), Clear-Lac.  

(Tan-kote does not work well on top of clear lac:  peels off later and looks horrible. Don't ask...)

I've also successfully used Aussie after the Neatsfoot oil (or paint, if you are using it), without issue.

Using resolene or bag kote or Tan kote or Eco-flo super sheen, or Angelus Acrylic finish, etc all met with less than stellar results.  Do-able, but not great.

This item used Angelus dye, Clear-lac with Angelus Black Acrylic antique, Clear lac top coat.  

 

 

I also have a small pistol case I am working on that was done with Fiebing's dye, and Fiebing's Sheridan brown Antique that worked out really well. 

YinTx

First wipe down, no top coat yet.

 

[YinTx]

So I've been using Clear Lac with some success as a resist, thanks to everyone's input.  Many many thanks.

 Now my issue is the topcoat.  Tan-kote does not work, despite all the instructions from so many sources saying to apply Tan-Kote over Fiebing's Paste Antique. (Alden's School of Leather Trades, Bruce Cheaney, Jim Linnell, The Leather Crafter's Bible, Al Stohlman's "Coloring Leather," the list goes on and on).  I find it just flakes off after it dries and looks terrible.  This happened to the large basketweave stamped project above.  

So I tried to use the Clear Lac as a top coat (also suggested in the book "Coloring Leather").  No flaking, and it seals just fine, but it pulls up the antique and makes a streaky mess.  This is a photo of a binder cover my little one is trying to make, and I've ruined it by applying the Clear Lac top coat.  Now I've started Sheridan carving, I'm going to need a good way to do this without streaking, peeling, flaking, cracking, etc.  Perhaps it is my method of application?  Suggestions?

 

 

YinTx

[terrymac]

When you wipe off the excess antique paste, be sure to get all you can.  I have found the only way to do this is using shearing or wool pads. Tandy sells a synthetic wool that works quite well. If you get all you can off, there is nothing left for the Clearlac to pick up.  I have been using Clear lack (Neatlac) as the final sealer for over fifty years and have never had your problems. An excellent video on the process is put out by Keith Valley on YouTube. He also uses Tankote, but not as the final finish. Tankote will take some of the paste off,  and I personally do not use it unless I need to lighten splotchy places on the leather.

Hope this helps

Terry

[YinTx]

Terry,

I did just wipe with a paper towel after applying the antique.  However, when I wiped the first time, it all came off, so I had to re apply and be careful about not pulling it out of the lettering and borders.  Second piece, I let it set for a while and dry before wiping, hoping more of it would stay down.  That helped with the contrast, but not with the streaking.  I have seen the Keith Valley video last year sometime I think, so thanks for the reminder.  After watching again, it looks like he really works the antique into the leather, not just wiping it on like so many others show.  Perhaps that is my issue, so I'll try again. 

He also uses Tan Kote.  Oddly enough as you mention, it looks like he puts another coat of Neat Lac on TOP of the Tan Kote.  

He also mentions a book, "Sheridan Style Carving" by Bob Likewise, so I'll see if it has any good info in it to help me out.

YinTx

[NVLeatherWorx]

17 hours ago, terrymac said:

When you wipe off the excess antique paste, be sure to get all you can.  I have found the only way to do this is using shearing or wool pads. Tandy sells a synthetic wool that works quite well. If you get all you can off, there is nothing left for the Clearlac to pick up.  I have been using Clear lack (Neatlac) as the final sealer for over fifty years and have never had your problems. An excellent video on the process is put out by Keith Valley on YouTube. He also uses Tankote, but not as the final finish. Tankote will take some of the paste off,  and I personally do not use it unless I need to lighten splotchy places on the leather.

Hope this helps

Terry

And to further support this suggestion that you have provided, I will use old denim rags to do my final buffing so as to ensure that I get all of it off that I can and it also creates a little bit of heat that kind of gives a burnished effect to the sheen.  Also, don't forget to make sure that you wipe the excess off IMMEDIATELY after applying; don't let it set overnight or cure, it must be wiped off immediately and then you let the antique cure.  In all of my years working with antique paste (and I use it religiously) and the Clear-Lac (formerly Neat-Lac) I have never had residual pull-up from it, not even on dyed projects.

[terrymac]

6 hours ago, YinTx said:

Terry,

I did just wipe with a paper towel after applying the antique.  However, when I wiped the first time, it all came off, so I had to re apply and be careful about not pulling it out of the lettering and borders.  Second piece, I let it set for a while and dry before wiping, hoping more of it would stay down.  That helped with the contrast, but not with the streaking.  I have seen the Keith Valley video last year sometime I think, so thanks for the reminder.  After watching again, it looks like he really works the antique into the leather, not just wiping it on like so many others show.  Perhaps that is my issue, so I'll try again. 

He also uses Tan Kote.  Oddly enough as you mention, it looks like he puts another coat of Neat Lac on TOP of the Tan Kote.  

He also mentions a book, "Sheridan Style Carving" by Bob Likewise, so I'll see if it has any good info in it to help me out.

YinTx

You do not want to leave it in the lettering and the borders. Excess paste is not what gets your highlights.  When you apply the paste you get all of the coloring you are going to get. One of the reasons checked bevelers and lined thumbprint are so popular is the checking and lines grab small amounts of the paste and you cannot get it out.  Your paper towels will never work except to remove the bulk of the paste. They will never pull the excess of of the tooling and swivel cuts as will the wool pads. Don't leave any excess anywhere. If you do, it will look like a mud pie.  If you noticed in the Keith Valley video, he works hard at getting it out. I agree with Nevada that you don't ever want to let the paste dry.  It is hard enough to get when it is wet. I can only imagine the nightmare you will have with dried paste and the resulting mess.

Keep working at it

Terry

 

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by terrymac

[YinTx]

Terry,

I gave the wool technique a try today, no luck.  I had a piece of leather I was trying out various stamps, borders, etc. on that had been dyed red then coated with clear lac.  Put the Fiebing's paste on, waited a few minutes, then wiped it *lightly* ONE time.  Absolutely no antique left, completely pulled it all out.

Here is the result:

Another project I was working on today the leather turned darker brown, but nothing stuck in the pear shaded areas on petals and leaves.  Only place that seemed to have antique left was where I had made decorative cuts.  I am again at a point of frustration. 

YinTx

 

[Ken Nelson]

I put the antique on with trimmed sheepskin and use several pieces to remove the excess but then I always have a lot of scraps laying around the saddle shop.  I use tan kote and do not let it dry before I wipe it off with sheepskin scrap.  Kind of pulls the antique out of where you don't want it.  I buff with full wool sheepskin after the Tankote. I use clearlac for the final  finish, and always apply with sheepskin, usually trimmed to about 1/4" wool.

[terrymac]

If you are attempting to antique dyed leather, it isn't going to work. It is only going to work on natural leather. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish, but if you are trying to highlight tooling that has been dyed, there are probably other products out there that are better suited for that purpose. I will routinely dye the background areas and leave the remainder of the tooling undyed, and those are the areas that the antique does its thing.  Also, if your pear shaded areas are not burnished(darkened) from the tool, the antique is not going to going to take the place of proper tooling techniques unless you are using a lined or  checkered tool that can grab small amounts of the paste.  Slick leather can't do that. You really have to match your product to what you are trying to accomplish.

[NVLeatherWorx]

2 hours ago, terrymac said:

If you are attempting to antique dyed leather, it isn't going to work. It is only going to work on natural leather. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish, but if you are trying to highlight tooling that has been dyed, there are probably other products out there that are better suited for that purpose. I will routinely dye the background areas and leave the remainder of the tooling undyed, and those are the areas that the antique does its thing.  Also, if your pear shaded areas are not burnished(darkened) from the tool, the antique is not going to going to take the place of proper tooling techniques unless you are using a lined or  checkered tool that can grab small amounts of the paste.  Slick leather can't do that. You really have to match your product to what you are trying to accomplish.

I too was wondering what the overall intent was here.  I think that we already covered the proper application steps for dyes/stains, finishes, etc. and it was previously noted that once you have the Clear-Lac applied you have now created a seal which is only going to resist.  I thought that I was the only one sitting back here scratching my head.  Thanks terrymac for hitting this point.

[NVLeatherWorx]

2 hours ago, terrymac said:

If you are attempting to antique dyed leather, it isn't going to work. It is only going to work on natural leather. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish, but if you are trying to highlight tooling that has been dyed, there are probably other products out there that are better suited for that purpose. I will routinely dye the background areas and leave the remainder of the tooling undyed, and those are the areas that the antique does its thing.  Also, if your pear shaded areas are not burnished(darkened) from the tool, the antique is not going to going to take the place of proper tooling techniques unless you are using a lined or  checkered tool that can grab small amounts of the paste.  Slick leather can't do that. You really have to match your product to what you are trying to accomplish.

You can apply an antique to dyed or stained leather but there is a certain order in which these things are to be applied and it is only valuable when trying to create the multi-tone effects, i.e. resisted effect.  Here it goes:

• Finish all tooling/stamping and let leather dry overnight to ensure all moisture is out
• If you are going to do vibrant color elements such as floral or other very decorative coloring then this is the time to dye/paint them and then let them dry for no less than 12 hours.
• Dye/stain main body if this is the direction that you are going and then let it dry for no less than 12 hours.  If your project has the color elements as above remember: you cannot resist an element against dye, it will penetrate right through that stuff.
• Now is the time to resist any areas that you DON"T want the antique to penetrate as deeply; you can control the amount of penetration through the number of times you apply your resist medium.  Let this dry no less than 8 hours before moving on.
• Apply your antique using a sheep's wool pad (synthetic pads work well too) and rub it into the leather in circular motions ensuring that you get the antique down into the texture of the stamping/tooling and the leather.  Once you have the leather covered IMMEDIATELY remove any excess, again using the sheep's wool remnant and start to buff it to a sheen.  Make sure that you are not leaving the leather with a flat dull look, this means that you still have some antique that hasn't been removed.  When buffing off the excess you will notice where your un-protected areas may have darkened while those areas that you resisted have retained very little, if any, of the antique.  This is how it is supposed to work.

You cannot get the antique effect that you are looking for from a piece that has been totally sealed with an acrylic or Clear-Lac, it has blocked the pores of the leather already so there is nowhere for it to go at this point.  If you are looking to give a fully dyed project a bit more depth in color in some areas then you need to apply your coloring agents BEFORE any finish/sealer, otherwise you are just wasting time and materials for an effect that you won't be able to achieve.