What do you think about this Singer 45K69

[Evo160K]

Hello vintage iron admirers.  Recently, I picked up this Singer 45K69 circa 1919 from an eBay seller who knew nothing about it.  It was even filthier on the outside than it is now, but the gearing and shafts are fairly clean inside.  The screws don't appear to have been abused.  The foot, dog and needle plates look to be in good shape as well.  It has 2-3 miserable coats of rattle can paint and no decals.  It came with part of the heater tubing, but nothing else.  It turns over freely as the seller said, however it's not sewing.......it's not forming the loop for the hook to catch using 346 bonded poly and a #26 needle.  It may be a timing issue, but before I start doing something I'm not sure about, perhaps you can offer your thoughts.  I believe this subclass normally uses heavier thread, but since the loop doesn't even begin to form, I think it may be something other than timing, perhaps a missing part.  I'm not sure if the tension assemblies are positioned properly either, although the tension on the top and bottom thread feel good.......similar to my Singer 45K25 and 45K53.

Would you please look at these pictures and tell me if it's threaded properly and what's missing or incorrect?  Any other comments you care to make will be greatly appreciated.

Before I go too far refurbishing this machine, I'd like to know if it sews.  I have a copy of the Singer illustrated parts list, but no service manual.

Thank you good people, thank you very much.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Evo160K

[Evo160K]

    and this of course

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Evo160K

[Constabulary]

Ha - now you are bitten by the Cast Iron Bug

It´s a sole stitcher, right?

Top tension looks like there is a pulley between the 2 discs which is okay in this case but I would guess you have to wrap the thread around the pulley - if you know what I mean.

Seems it has no thread regulator spring - maybe you also have to wrap the thread around the post where the thread regulator unit supposed to be. Just a guess

[Wizcrafts]

You're either going to have to switch to running linen thread through liquid bees wax (e.g.: Sellari's Stitching Wax), or find a check spring assembly and figure out how to mount it on the face plate, before the take-up lever. Perhaps it could replace that lower left roller.

The thread needs to be double or triple wrapped around the top roller to get any top tension at all. That roller is meant to grab waxed linen thread. Bonded poly probably just slips on it.

[jimi]

 Oh yes Folker, Al has the bug  you might have to sell your car to make way for the other 5 or 6 machines to come! 

very nice looking machine there Al. as you can tell from the parts book it was for sole stitching and the needle plate had a knife that fitted in that channel in between the teeth of the feed dogs to cut a channel in the leather to sink the thread in the leather #95111. i am just guessing but that disk with the hole on the side #17547 where the thread passes through after the first set of disks, would make more sense right after the disks . it seems to be too far away from the thread path?? on this one there is no thread take up lever spring, instead looks like the roller and stud moves up and down with the needle bar. #91764, 91787, 91788. i would maybe try with a smaller needle and thread first?? the thread path looks right to me? and yes as folker said, 1 1/2 times around the second tension unit with the roller. tell us how you get on Al, regards jimi. 

[Evo160K]

Thank you Constabulary, Wizcrafts and Jimi for your thoughts, thank you very much.

@Constabulary  Yes it seems I have been bitten, not sure if that's a good thing at this stage in life though. This K69 is indeed a sole stitcher.....I'll never use it that way, just enjoy working on them.   I am wrapping the thread around the pulley, I learned that from you and jimi while setting up the 45K53.  I was also wondering why there's no thread regulating spring.   Then I noticed in the parts manual, those two springs (they're stacked one over the other) by the red arrow in the picture below, are adjustable with that domed head, split screw. They can be adjusted to "pinch" the thread between the springs more or less.  Do you think that serves a similar function?

 

@Wizcrafts  When you say "double or triple wrapped around the top roller", by top roller are you referring to the pulley on the top tension assembly?  I ask because there are rollers on both the (upper) thread take-up lever and (lower) auxiliary thread take-up lever on the faceplate with the facing screws, that the thread passes through. Btw, the thread doesn't seem to be slipping on the top tension assembly pulley.

Do you think those stacked springs work similarly to the check spring assembly?   Thanks Wiz.

 

@Jimi  That 95111 knife wasn't on my machine, is it on yours?  Btw I had the 91794 thread retainer and screw, but have managed to misplace them. 

"i am just guessing but that disk with the hole on the side #17547 where the thread passes through after the first set of disks, would make more sense right after the disks."  Can you explain that a bit more?  I agree the hole in that 17547 disc is not in the thread path the way it is now.

 

"on this one there is no thread take up lever spring, instead looks like the roller and stud moves up and down with the needle bar. #91764, 91787, 91788."  That is correct, the roller and stud move up and down with the needle bar.

The picture below more or less shows how that's done.  There's a piece, 91764, attached to the needle bar that engages the curved slot and moves that lower take-up lever as the needle bar moves.

 

 

So I'm still puzzled as to how that loop is formed with this machine.

Jimi, does your parts list have a Numerical List of Part Numbers?  Mine doesn't, makes it more difficult to maneuver in the parts list, but it's doable....just slower.

Thanks again one and all.

[Wizcrafts]

Something has to stop the thread in the needle down position in order for the loop to form. It may well be the flat spring you outlined. That's sorta kinda like the function of the paddle spring on a 29k needle bar.

[jimi]

Hi Al, no i have no knife for the plate i made up. i did not get around to making the feed dog either. it seemed a little confusing how the knife worked and how deep it would cut etc... so it was parked.. the one with the two teeth on the right worked great considering it looks really rough  once lined up with the stitch length and you don´t hit any tight curves, you don´t really see any marks at all underneath. anyway your tension stud looks like it was changed because the one in the parts list # SS439 has a short length of body from the thread to the disk. the one you have has a longer length of body, that is why that disk is so far away from the thread path. i will upload the numerical parts list for you.

.

 

 

[jimi]

[jimi]

[jimi]

[jimi]

[jimi]

[jimi]

[jimi]

not easy to see but you can make out that the disk is closer--

[jimi]

5 hours ago, jimi said:

the one with the two teeth on the right worked great considering it looks really rough  once lined up with the stitch length and you don´t hit any tight curves, you don´t really see any marks at all underneath

forgot to put up the picture  

Edited January 25, 2018 by jimi

[Evo160K]

Hi Jimi,

Jimi, your needle plate looks really good.  Did you make the two-teeth feed dog as well?  Nice work.

Thanks so much for all of your time and effort in copying and sending that Numerical Parts List. That's extremely helpful, saves so much time. I owe you.

About the knife blade you mentioned, did you notice in the parts list it was offered in three sizes: 95111 small, 95112 medium and 95113 large? Do you think that's to accommodate various thicknesses of thread?

"anyway your tension stud looks like it was changed because the one in the parts list # SS439 has a short length of body from the thread to the disk. the one you have has a longer length of body, that is why that disk is so far away from the thread path."

For some reason the image of the SS439 you mentioned above is not shown on Plate 1337 in my parts list or anywhere else for that matter.  I believe the images in your parts list are an older version than mine.

Something else I noticed in the parts list is the 45K69 uses 82551 Thread Controlling Lever and 95132 Thread Controlling Lever Spring.  (See attached pictures.)  The K68 and K71 don't use these parts. The 82551 lever is used on the 45K21,K25, but the spring is different., On the K69 they're used on tension screw stud SS391.  So are these the parts that form the loop on the K69?  Since the 45K68 and 45K71 don't use these two parts, how is the loop formed on those two subclasses?  I'm so puzzled as to how the loop is formed on the K69.

Jimi, would you be able to take some close-up pictures of the faceplate on your machine?  Also if you get time would you please make photocopies of the parts images from your parts list (you sent the numerical list) and mail them?  I'll pay for everything.

 

 

What do you think about Wizcrafts comment above about the  paddle spring on a 29k needle bar?  How the hell does that loop form on the K69?

Thanks again for sending the numerical list and for the hand-holding.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Evo160K

[Wizcrafts]

6 minutes ago, Evo160K said:

Hi Jimi,

Jimi, your needle plate looks really good.  Did you make the two-teeth feed dog as well?  Nice work.

Thanks so much for all of your time and effort in copying and sending that Numerical Parts List. That's extremely helpful, saves so much time. I owe you.

About the knife blade you mentioned, did you notice in the parts list it was offered in three sizes: 95111 small, 95112 medium and 95113 large? Do you think that's to accommodate various thicknesses of thread?

"anyway your tension stud looks like it was changed because the one in the parts list # SS439 has a short length of body from the thread to the disk. the one you have has a longer length of body, that is why that disk is so far away from the thread path."

For some reason the image of the SS439 you mentioned above is not shown on Plate 1337 in my parts list or anywhere else for that matter.  I believe the images in your parts list are an older version than mine.

Something else I noticed in the parts list is the 45K69 uses 82551 Thread Controlling Lever and 95132 Thread Controlling Lever Spring.  (See attached pictures.)  The K68 and K71 don't use these parts. The 82551 lever is used on the 45K21,K25, but the spring is different., On the K69 they're used on tension screw stud SS391.  So are these the parts that form the loop on the K69?  Since the 45K68 and 45K71 don't use these two parts, how is the loop formed on those two subclasses?  I'm so puzzled as to how the loop is formed on the K69.

Jimi, would you be able to take some close-up pictures of the faceplate on your machine?  Also if you get time would you please make photocopies of the parts images from your parts list (you sent the numerical list) and mail them?  I'll pay for everything.

 

 

What do you think about Wizcrafts comment above about the  paddle spring on a 29k needle bar?  How the hell does that loop form on the K69?

Thanks again for sending the numerical list and for the hand-holding.

My comparison was meant to point out that a flat (or paddle shaped) spring can hold the thread in its most slack position (at the bottom of the downstroke) long enough for the loop to form as the needle begins to ascend from BDC. In the absence of any check spring, the slightest upward tug on the thread will dissolve the loop or cause it to not form at all.

A patch machine depends on a paddle shaped check spring to hold the thread in place as the needle jogs down, up, then down again. When that spring wears out, the loop becomes too small to get picked off reliably. A broken spring usually translates into she won't sew at all.

[Constabulary]

wiz - do you mean the spring on the needle bar on the 29K? Or I got it wrong  I think its purpose of the needle bar spring to avoid thread rebound. I had this on a Adler 30-1 the thread always jumped out of the path (at the stud near the top tension discs) until I figured the needle bar spring was worn (grove in the center of the pedaled end). 

The thread regulator spring is holding the thread taut approx. until the needle penetrates the material (f.i. for preventing needle piercing the thread). The thread loop is formed when the needle rises from BDC and the friction between material, needle and thread is forming the loop.

I guess the problem is your thread and / or the needle. The machine is meant for sewing with a heavily waxed thread and I would guess the thread is probably to "slippy" for this machine. Waxed thread is causing more friction especially while forming the loop. If you know what I mean. But thats just a guess... I know usually 346 thread requires a 26 needle but I would try a needle one or even 2 sizes smaller (depends on your thread).

I also have some certain thread I got from a former tent maker and I wanted to use it with my DVSG / BUSMC #6 but it did not work at all. Changed the thread and voila - perfect loop forming and it works like a dream. Sometimes it is just odd and you don´t know / can´t figure why.

[Wizcrafts]

Constabulary;

Yes, the paddle shaped spring I referred to is on the needle bar of a Singer or Adler patcher. When they wear, the thread loop suffers no matter how you set the upper take-up parts.

[jimi]

Hi Al, here are the illustrations meantime that were uploaded in another topic. if you have the dixie pdf then that copy Sup`des this one k3351. and this one Sup`des K2268. if you do have the dixie copy then you were right, that stud is not there nor the disk #17547? 

on the subject of the loop, i`am not sure about the thread and the paddle commented by wiz and folker?? if you look in this post for the 45k68 the thread used in the machine looks like b-nylon and it does not seem to have been threaded through that plate with the springs on the cover. and it looks like it has sewn some stitches?? then in the other picture the yellow thread is through the plate?? that is why i said in the first post to try maybe a smaller needle and thread?? like folker said if you have a nº 26 needle in and the thread passes freely up and down the groove on the needle with no friction from the leather then i would imagine you will not get any loop to form?? aren´t  old machines fun when they do not cooperate! 

11 hours ago, Evo160K said:

Something else I noticed in the parts list is the 45K69 uses 82551 Thread Controlling Lever and 95132 Thread Controlling Lever Spring.  (See attached pictures.)  The K68 and K71 don't use these parts. The 82551 lever is used on the 45K21,K25, but the spring is different., On the K69 they're used on tension screw stud SS391.  So are these the parts that form the loop on the K69?  Since the 45K68 and 45K71 don't use these two parts, how is the loop formed on those two subclasses?  I'm so puzzled as to how the loop is formed on the K69.

I think the stud and roller on your machine that moves with the needle bar does the same thing as the above tension assembly with the spring. try to push a threaded needle into a piece of leather by hand and then pull it backwards, you should see a loop appear?

yes i think the three sizes of knife will have to do with the thread and depth of cut Al, well spotted 

i will get some pictures of the face plate but it is not the same as your 45k69 it is the same as your 45k25?? 

yes Al, thanks. i did make that two-teeth feed dog.

this is a singer one...

Edited January 26, 2018 by jimi

[Evo160K]

Thank you good people for your thoughts and thank you Jimi for your pictures.  Without you all helping me,  I wouldn't begin to work on these machines.

Here's where things stand at the moment, the machine will not pick up the bobbin thread, it won't even initially pull the bobbin thread through the needle plate to get it on top.  I tried lowering the needle bar 2-4 mm, no help, I went to a number 24 needle with the same thread thinking that wouldn't allow the thread to slide through the eye on the up stroke thereby forcing a loop to form.....no dice, a loop will not form.  Obviously I'm doing something wrong.......I'm at a loss.  Any thoughts?

I'll try to do a short video if I can remember how.  

Thank you, thank you very much.

[Wizcrafts]

Can you get some prewaxed thread and try sewing with it?

[Evo160K]

5 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Can you get some prewaxed thread and try sewing with it?

Yes Wiz, I will do that, thank you.  What size do you suggest, and what's a good source for it?

[Wizcrafts]

I'd guess 6 cords would be standard for sewing shoe soles. But, it depends on the size of the needle. Is there a number like 25, 26, 27 (or 200, 220, 250), etc?

If in doubt, take the needle to where they sell waxed linen thread and get the largest thread that easily slides through the eye of the needle without binding or dragging. The needle must punch a hole big enough for both the top and bottom thread to form a lockstitch knot. That knot will be about twice the diameter of one thread, or even more. If the needle is 2mm diameter, try using waxed thread just under 1mm. 6 cord linen thread is about .72mm diameter. You'll need more clearance than if you were using bonded polyester thread, which is wound tighter.