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Timing a zig zag machine

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I would like to get some input regarding the timing of zig zag machines (Singer 143W3 in particular). In the past I have been told that to set the timing the zig zag should be set to its widest stitch, and the hook timed to the needle based on a specified rise on the left stroke. I have also heard that the needle should be set in its center position and timed from there. So....what say the gurus here??

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I timed one of those a month or so ago and set the needle to the center to time the hook. Then I verified that it still picked off the thread at the extremes of the zig zag throw.

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That Singer manual conveniently make no mention of the zig zag position for hook timing.

I burned a little midnight oil contemplating this zig-zag hook timing business. In order to visualize what's going on, I modeled it up in my CAD program to see how things line up. To my surprise, things didn't line up the way I was expecting them to. 

Since the needle rises steadily after BDC while the hook rotates along a circular path, the timing changes a little or a lot, depending on which side of the center position the needle is located during zig-zag. 

The images below are color coded to make it easier to reference center and either zig-zag position of the needle. The needle positions show the horizontal zig-zag at vertical position at the moment the hook meets the needle.

The green needle indicates the center position. 

The yellow needle represents the early zig-zag position (he hook arrives at the needle earlier than in the green center position.)

The blue needle represents the late zig-zag position (the hook arrives at the needle later than in the green center position.)

It turns out that the yellow early and green centered needle positions are nearly identical in terms of where the hook meet the needle - near the top of the scarf. This is because between the yellow and green positions both the hook and the needle are moving in the same vertical direction - upwards

The blue late needle position is the critical one - timing changes drastically and the hook meets the needle at the very bottom of the scarf. This drastic change is due to the fact that hook and needle start moving in opposite vertical directions after the center position - the needle keeps moving upwards but the hook starts to move downward again after the center position. 

So, to make sure the worst-case zig-zag needle position is timed correctly, I'd verify the late (blue) zig-zag position. The early and center needle positions will very likely be fine if the late zig-zag position is timed so that he hook meets the needle at the lowest allowable point of the scarf.

The picture below shows the front view of the hook that is rotating counter-clockwise behind the needle.  The center and zig-zag needle positions are shown in the vertical position at the moment the hook tip meets the needle in that position.

Zig-Zag-Hook-Timing-Front-View.jpg

 

This image is a view from a different angle that shows where the hook meets up with the scarf of the needle at the different zig-zag positions. Center green and early yellow positions are nearly identical. The late blue position is very different.

Zig-Zag-Hook-Timing.jpg

Going through this exercise helped me understand how this zig-zag hook timing thing works. Hopefully others can make sense of it, too.

 

Edited by Uwe

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Very nice graphics! :huh:

1 hour ago, Uwe said:

That Singer manual conveniently make no mention of the zig zag position for hook timing.

Thats true but when the needle / hook are properly timed in the center position (straight stitch) as mentioned it in he manual  the zig zag  "usually" works. You probably have to play the with needle bar hight a bit. That at least what I experienced with similar machines. Needle bar frame should be properly centered too.

An issue can be the needle it self - I figured sometimes needles have different needle scarf hight though they are the same needle system Hope you can see it in the picture. In this case both are Singer needles - one marked SINGER and the other SNF (Spezial Nadelfabrik - once a Singer owned needle factory). So the needle with the higher scarf most likely is "more forgiving" when setting up a ZZ machine.

 

IMG_4240.JPG

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I did refer to that manual, however as Uwe points out there is no reference to the zig zag position when setting the hook to the needle. Uwe thanks very much for the in-depth look at the workings of the needle/hook. I will use that as a reference and see how that approach works on this machine. It sews ok, but it just does not seem to be “spot on” and that’s what I’m trying to achieve. Anyone else that has zig zag hook/needle timing experience feel free to chime in. 

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After spending more time with this machine, these are my findings: The only way I could get it to sew was if it was timed with the needle in the center position. I did have to adjust the needle height a bit (as stated by Constabulary). I also had to adjust the needle bar frame. 

Just for informational purposes, I timed the needle in both the left and right positions and though the needle will pick up the bobbin thread it will only sew a straight stitch not a zig zag. 

So (at least for this particular machine) it appears the timing is best done with the needle centered (both in the needle bar frame and set for straight stitch) and attention must be paid to where the point of the hook falls on the needle scarf. After these items were attended to the machine is sewing very well. 

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Center the needle, for sure to time the hook.  I'm on the hunt, but here are some of the books that use this same hook and would be timed the same.  First machine I thought of was an Adler 98 that uses this hook, but they don't have much on this, as usual.  Maybe one of these other brands has a book with more information?  

GREAT information from UWE, as usual, and great incite on the needle scarf; that is so important, as I've seen in some cases where the scarf is long or shorter from brand to brand.  All in the same 135X7 needle system used here in this case for the 107W, 143W

KRP Hook Singer 107, 143W.PNG

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I took a closer look at my Singer 143W2. My machine is a 4-step variation of the basic zig-zag machine. The real world vertical hook-to-needle position correlates closely to the concept graphics I posted earlier. 

My personal hook timing procedure for any lockstitch machine where the hook makes two rotations for each stitch:

1. Bring needle to bottom dead center position

2. Rotate hook tip to 60˚ (10 minutes on the imaginary clock face) before reaching the needle, tighten hook

3. Move hand wheel to line up hook tip with needle

4. Adjust needle bar height so that hook tip is in the middle of needle scarf (use near-center position for zig-zag machines) 

5. Adjust hook-to-needle distance if need be

I have yet to meet a machine that will not make a stitch after doing this. It's a great starting point for machines where you don't have a service manual. It avoids all that annoying measuring-needle-rise business.

 

Here's a video showing a close-up of this zig-zag hook timing business after the procedure above.

 

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10 hours ago, Uwe said:

I took a closer look at my Singer 143W2. My machine is a 4-step variation of the basic zig-zag machine. The real world vertical hook-to-needle position correlates closely to the concept graphics I posted earlier. 

My personal hook timing procedure for any lockstitch machine where the hook makes two rotations for each stitch:

1. Bring needle to bottom dead center position

2. Rotate hook tip to 60˚ (10 minutes on the imaginary clock face) before reaching the needle, tighten hook

3. Move hand wheel to line up hook tip with needle

4. Adjust needle bar height so that hook tip is in the middle of needle scarf (use near-center position for zig-zag machines) 

5. Adjust hook-to-needle distance if need be

I have yet to meet a machine that will not make a stitch after doing this. It's a great starting point for machines where you don't have a service manual. It avoids all that annoying measuring-needle-rise business.

 

Here's a video showing a close-up of this zig-zag hook timing business after the procedure above.

 

Once again, excellent post UWE.  

Trick question; what sewing mechanism would prevent the hook timing being split, or, in other words, prevent the needle from coming in high on one side and low on the other side?  The answer is a bit more common on house hold type machines, but once in a while it's on an industrial.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Gregg From Keystone Sewing said:

Trick question; what sewing mechanism would prevent the hook timing being split, or, in other words, prevent the needle from coming in high on one side and low on the other side?  The answer is a bit more common on house hold type machines, but once in a while it's on an industrial.

uuuuuhhh.... I would guess one with vibrating needle plate / feed dog or foot bar? I heard there is something like that - or not?  Or maybe bar tackers? :huh:

Edited by Constabulary

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1 hour ago, Gregg From Keystone Sewing said:

Once again, excellent post UWE.  

Trick question; what sewing mechanism would prevent the hook timing being split, or, in other words, prevent the needle from coming in high on one side and low on the other side?  The answer is a bit more common on house hold type machines, but once in a while it's on an industrial.

 

 

Hi,

 

lateral shuttle movement would do the trick. Mitgehender Greifer in Krautspeak. The Solent Ocean XL sailmaking machine would be an example of the technology.

 

Greets

Ralf C.

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41 minutes ago, Kohlrausch said:

Hi,

 

lateral shuttle movement would do the trick. Mitgehender Greifer in Krautspeak. The Solent Ocean XL sailmaking machine would be an example of the technology.

 

Greets

Ralf C.

That's one (very good) example of this.  

CLICK HERE for a YouTube video I made up of a very unique Singer machine.

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The Sailrite type design moves the hook axially during zig-zag, which also avoids the particular timing challenges illustrated earlier: 

 

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1 hour ago, Uwe said:

The Sailrite type design moves the hook axially during zig-zag, which also avoids the particular timing challenges illustrated earlier: 

 

Sailrite has some great vids about timing their Ultrafeed machines. Pretty exhaustive in detail. I have a generic clone of one (Family/Feiyue/Yamata) I got from a Goodwill depot store for $3. (yes...THREE dollars)

Watched a few vids and after a bit of fiddling it runs great.

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After a lengthy conversation (and pictures sent via text) with the most knowledgeable sewing machine mechanic I know, I have gleaned this information. He stated the best way to time a zig zag machine is to set the stitch width where it will be used most of the time. Place the needle at BDC on the left side, and raise it the specified distance. Then set the hook in a slightly advanced position to the needle. This may require some fine tuning, but in his opinion is the best method to time a standard type of zig zag machine. This lines up pretty well with what Uwe said several posts up. Hope this will be of help to someone. 

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This is the very best I could find on this subject.  I really like the timing instructions the needle bar height setting leaves a bit to be desired.  

DA528HookTiming.PNG

DA528NeedleBarHeightText.PNG

DA525Fig.5.PNG

Edited by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

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