Zig-zag machinez

[Dave84]

Hey Everyone,

I'm moving my custom denim into leather now.  I currently have an Adler 167 as my main machine, a Husqvarna Emerald 118 table top for light work and patches, along with a Singer overlock.  The Husqvarna does zig zag, but getting through 1mm leather is tough, plus I'm using 92 poly thread, lots of problems.  Can anyone recommend a zig zag machine of any sort for attaching leather panels that won't break the bank?

[Uwe]

That depends on your bank. A Pfaff 130 is a very nice vintage zig-zag machine that will probably do what you have in mind. Pfaff 130 occasionally pop up on CraigsList and other places for $100-200.

Other vintage options are Singer 143W and variations on that theme.

New heavy duty industrial zigzag machjnes like the Consew 199RB are over $2K

 

 

And then there's always Sailrite if you need to sew denim/leather on a sailboat (or at home.)   They don't get much respect here on LW, but they are probably fine for your application.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Uwe

[ZigZag]

I have used the Sailrite LZ for over 5 years now and given it a pretty tough time persuading it to go through 2.5mm of leather and 2 layers of 15oz canvas. It was pretty much at its limit, but managed without complaining. I have had no trouble with over all that time, mainly using V92 thread and marine canvas.

I have also spent plenty of time with the Pfaff 138 and 238 which are great machines and plenty up for the task. These 2 machines come in 2 different widths of zig zag 4.5mm and 6mm. 

The 143 Uwe has mentioned is one I'd quite like to get my hands on.

Good luck

[Dave84]

I've been recommended the singer 107 and 143, but I think walking foot would be best, unless you guys can say without concern that working with layers of leather don't slip or have othwr issues with the older singers.  Id honestly prefer the mechanical machines over computerized, and i do not have $2000 plus for a consew.

[Uwe]

Let us know when you find a cheap industrial walking foot zig zag machine without issues. I want one, too.

[Dave84]

Hardy-har-har and maybe someone will give each of us one for free.

[Dave84]

But in all seriousness, very very serious, the singer 143 and Pfaff 138 machines, can they handle multiple layers of leather, have reverse, run 92 poly thread, have the ability to be connected to a servo motor, etc?  I am seeing both on Facebook marketplace for prices I really like for a machine that will handle on zig zag on leather

[Uwe]

The Pfaff 138 is definitely a full scale industrial sewing machine, designed to sit in a table and run on a clutch or servo motor.   

Here are a few pictures of my machines for reference and size comparison between Pfaff 130 and Pfaff 130. If I find time I'll do some test runs with denim and leather.

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Uwe

[Dave84]

Thanks Uwe,  looking forward to hearing your results!  I'd prefer a 138 after researching this morning.  

[Wizcrafts]

The Pfaff 138 is the smoothest running industrial sewing machine I ever owned. I let it go decades ago and would not have done so if I had better hindsight. The only thing I didn't like about it was the limited width of zig zag throw it had. Perhaps somebody else would have known how to tweak that range for more throw.

[Constabulary]

Sometimes you can find the Pfaff 138 with a wider 6mm ZZ but they are harder to find.

[Uwe]

Here's the sewing demo video with my Pfaff 138 sewing oil tan leather patches onto canvas material. Hopefully it will give you some idea of how this machine handles that particular task. 

 

[Haderimouve]

Other effective alternative to the Pfaff 138 :

I have a Bernina 217 (some as mine equipped with puler) which zig zag (but also many other stitches with one of the  19 cams that I bought separately) works great in tough materials if not too thick ... Most are 6mmZZ but it's frequent to find 8mmZZ and sometimes 12mmZZ !!!) But it's more rare in the market than a Pfaff 138 and usually cost much more.

That said, it's swiss quality lasting about forever !

http://www.ashleyandthenoisemakers.com/blog/2015/5/7/bernina-217-review

Here an old Bernina 217 with cams :

And the 12mm ZZ (Bernina 217 rebadged Adler) !!!

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Haderimouve

[Michiel]

I started with a pfaff 138 for canvas pvc and sometimes leather.

it was strong  (compared with house hold machines) but  the feed was limited (i believe it was not sold for other than light work)

But since  i wanted a zigzag it was hard to find a better sewing machine.

at the and i decided i needed a real sailmakers machine: an adler 98 for light and medium heavy work or an adler 166 for heavy work (it was hard too choose so at the end i bought both)

Both are hard to find but exelent machines (and sold for leather)

the most important differeence between my pfaff 138 and adler 98 is the feed.

also only bottum feed but much wider and stronger.

(i love this forum and learned a lott by reading al the posts, but normaly do not feel a have to ad much, so this is my first post)

michiel

 

http://www.duerkopp-adler.com/commons/download/download-text-attachments/Vintage_Leaflets_Adler/Leaflet_Adler_Class_166.pdf

[Uwe]

On the far end of the spectrum is this super heavy duty Singer top+bottom feed zig zag machine. I'm not sure which model this is. I keep it on a dedicated hydraulic lift cart for a reason.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Uwe

[Dave84]

Uwe, thank you very much, your video helps a ton.  What do you know of the differences between the Pfaff 138 and 130?  I have a 130 closer in distance to me, but do want the industrial strength zig zag.  Based on your demo, I would be quite happy with the 138 after testing several runs of only leather, with it not being a walking foot that's the last test.  

[DonInReno]

Uwe - I love that big zig zag!

Dave - I'll throw this out there - if you don't mind tinkering a little the Rex 607 is a sailrite clone that's a huge bargain.  As it ships it may or may not function properly - these are not fine tuned and I had a minor issue every day for a week straight.  Nothing huge, but you'll know the machine inside and out by the time it's broken in.  The only new machine purchase of any kind with a manual that doesn't even attempt to suggest they make replacement parts let alone a service department.  You really are on your own.....sort of.   Sailrite has parts and all the machines of this type are very basic and easy to figure out.

The strangest quirk is a oil point that can't be reached unless the motor and cover its mounted to is removed - I must have spent 8 hrs tracking down a slight bind that turned out to be lubrication related. Lol

If that doesn't scare you off the second big issue is the machine doesn't have a lot of grunt out of the box - in fact I wouldn't recommend it at all if you don't upgrade it somehow.  You'll definitely need to either upgrade the hand wheel to a sailrite monster wheel and/or add a v belt pulley and servo motor.  The clogged belts are standard "XL 8mm wide"  type available on amazon or eBay so it's inexpensive to track down pulleys and long belts.  I have the monster wheel and it will easily sew through 8 layers of thick marine vinyl with 92 weight thread.  The feed dogs are too aggressive for leather unless smoothed down a bit.

As a lot of owners of these machines have done, a user quickly outgrows them....it fills a limited niche that I describe as home sewers afraid of commercial machines and others that have bought into Sailrite's marketing, parts, and service.  Even on a sailboat or RV with minimal storage I'd rather have a full size machine set up for table top use.

I keep it around for teaching new sewers and when one of the kids takes an interest I'll gift it.

[Kohlrausch]

23 hours ago, Dave84 said:

Uwe, thank you very much, your video helps a ton.  What do you know of the differences between the Pfaff 138 and 130?  I have a 130 closer in distance to me, but do want the industrial strength zig zag.  Based on your demo, I would be quite happy with the 138 after testing several runs of only leather, with it not being a walking foot that's the last test.  

Hi,

the Pfaff 130 was designed as a commercial machine alright, but for womens' tailoring and linnen stitching. Think silk blouses and bedsheets. The 138 has been designed for mens' tailoring and industrial garment production. The 138 has am much stronger presser-foot spring. Weak spot in the 130 is the needle bar clamp which lacks clamping power if the 130 is used for heavy work.

There have been several variants of the 138. I recommend the old black ones with needle system 134. There have also been some with more exotic needle systems and household needles. The 138 works well with a roller foot.

The Pfaff 34, 38, 134, 138, 238 etc. use a Pfaff-specific high shank foot. There will be few aftermarked feet. Pfaff also made an adapter, part number 6603 which converts the high shank machines to standard low shank.

If you want to go really exotic you can look for a Pfaff 38 C/D with 6 mm zigzag and double roller foot.Never seen one even on the internet, but I have the manual ;-)

 

Greets

Ralf C.

[Dave84]

Ralf,  thank you for the knowledge dude.  I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a Pfaff 138 then, which ever I can get my hands on.  I'm also going to talk to my local used guy about Adler 98 machines that he could have.  These are the two I've narrowed my search for.  Anyone have experience with the Adler 98?

[Michiel]

In my search for a good used industrial.  sewing machine with zigzag i found this list verry useful

http://www.voiles-alternatives.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=343

its in french but the list and photo's are clear  (and you always can use google translate)

regards, michiel

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

On 3/16/2018 at 5:44 PM, Uwe said:

On the far end of the spectrum is this super heavy duty Singer top+bottom feed zig zag machine. I'm not sure which model this is. I keep it on a dedicated hydraulic lift cart for a reason.

 

 

 

I'm very interested in finding out what model Singer that is.  So far I've come up dry.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing
My poor spelling.

[GPaudler]

The Brother TZ1-B652 was the basis for the original Sailright. It's a drop-feed machine that sews straight and zig-zag up to 10mm. Their specifications state a 12mm zig-zag width but my machines sew closer to 10mm. They do a pretty nice, long straight stitch.

I have two of them, one of them I've modified slightly to sew splices in rope up to 12mm in diameter. I set the length of the zig-zag stitch to about 0.5mm and sew four passes with #92 thread - two narrower passes and two full-width. Tested to failure, the rope breaks where the splice isn't, at over 8,000 lbs.

They have an interesting mechanism that changes the timing according to the stitch width, which makes a lot of sense.

The Sailright version comes in a wooden case with an attached, domestic-style motor and a hand crank. I added a 2amp motor to the other one and just set it on a bench when I need to sew a splice. The 2amp motor is adequate. I filed-out the slot on the presser foot to gain clearance and I added a shaft collar to the needle bar so that the hammering through thick rope doesn't drive the bar upward.

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by GPaudler
add info.

[Uwe]

On 3/28/2018 at 11:19 AM, Gregg From Keystone Sewing said:

I'm very interested in finding out what model Singer that is.  So far I've come up dry.

I was moving some machine around and found that I had two more of these little monsters hiding in the shadows and they had model type plates - yay!

I turns out they're Singer 47K5 machines (and they really have nothing in common with Singer 47W machines other than the Singer name)

Here are pictures of the black one with good restoration potential:

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Very interesting, I'll check my Singer books on these.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]