Getting Black to Stay True Black!

[farmkidkoko]

Hey all!

I'm looking for advice on a problem I've been having for awhile.  Whether I use black dye (water or oil based), antiquing, edge coat, or whatever, my black doesn't stay black.  When I put a top protective coat on (resolene, super shene, satin shene, etc), the black wipes off leaving brown behind.

On this specific piece I tried one technique that didn't work and subsequently tried a second one that hasn't failed me too badly in the past.  Well, this time it did fail.  All my attempts (including my last one of over-dyeing the entire project) went bust.  I personally like the rustic look I wound up with, but it's not what my customer ordered.

So, two questions:

1. How do you keep your black vibrantly black?  What products or techniques work for you?
2. Any ideas on how to fix this specific piece?

Thanks,

Miranda
 

[farmkidkoko]

This is the project of which I speak!

[JD62]

Wow I don't think I've seen it do that before. Maybe if you could give specific steps and products you used it would help narrow down an answer. It kind of looks like the black is scraping off, like its on top of a finish, or the dye wasn't dry.

Edited May 9, 2018 by JD62

[Bodean]

What type of leather are you using?

 

[koreric75]

I've seen this before, mostly on the Eco Flo high lighter/antique, but also on the water based dye, I found I needed to let it dry twice as long as I could stand before even thinking about resolene...I switched to spirit dye, and still let it dry real good, usually over night, then buff with a soft cloth to get and dust or left over dry color then very light coat of resolene... I'm guessing, but judging from the blue shark under, was this a highlighter?

[MikeG]

No good answer, but following this thread.

I recently had the exact same issue using Fiebing's USMC black on a knife sheath.  When I first dyed it and buffed it, some of the black came off, and I dyed it a second time.  I carefully avoided buffing it too hard, and it was totally black.  I applied neatsfoot oil, and a lot of the black came off.  The result was a nice reddish dark brown around the edges.  Really a nice rustic finish, but unfortunately not for a Marine knife sheath.  I started over.  dyed twice, let it dry overnight, carefully and lightly buffed it, and very carefully applied leather sheen.  It seems to have worked, I cross my fingers the black wont rub off with use.

Next time, vinegaroon.

Edited May 9, 2018 by MikeG
added

[Bodean]

My guess is that leather had to have some sort of prevention of penetration of the dye. Such as it was oil tanned or treated withsome oil prior to dying. Plain ole veg tanned leather won't do that normally with black dye in my experience. I am not one to put neatsfoot oil on leather prior to dying. I treat the pieces after the dying process.

I have had rub off with using black before, but not completely rubbing off. USMC is the worst at causing rub off in my experience. Some hides of veg tan do differently with black. Sometimes i get more rub off than I should with regular Pro Dye Fiebing's black, I will go over with Angelus jet black and it reduces it. Sometimes I have used Show Brown over black to reduce rub off during buffing. 

More info is need here from the OP to draw any more conclusions.

[MikeG]

21 minutes ago, Bodean said:

Thanks for the input, Bodean.

< USMC is the worst at causing rub off in my experience. >     --- That is good to know.  I have heard of using blue first and then the USMC black, but  I think I will be trying a different brand, like the Angelus. 

< I am not one to put neatsfoot oil on leather prior to dying. I treat the pieces after the dying process. >  ---  In my case it was two different pieces of veg tan.  Both were kind of vintage, so that may have some effect on the outcome.  I dyed both on untreated dry leather.  I also do not treat until after dyeing.

Interestingly, I have not had this rub off problem with any other dye colors.  And the USMC black is a recent purchase, so age shouldn't be a factor.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by MikeG
italic for emphasis

[oltoot]

I've never tried it so I can't say for sure (I just use 2 coats) but the old timer who I worked with when I was just a boy always dyed his black (smooth surfaces, not matted or backgrounded) with a coat of deep purple first, letting it dry and buffing it before applying the black, just sayin.

[farmkidkoko]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!  Very helpful.

This was a strip of leather I bought from Tandy a couple years ago - just veg tanned.  I didn't put anything on it prior to using the black dye (spirits).  When that failed, I called in the antique and when that failed, I went with Eco Flo black dye.  Lots of drying in between.  The residue that's left behind is, in my experience, because of all the layers.

I'm not sure if there's any salvaging this piece, but I've "been there, done that" so many times with black, I figured I might as well reach out and see how I can improve my method.  I like the blue/purple idea and the reminder to dry, dry, dry is a good one - it's easy to get impatient when the project just needs to get done!