Crazy stitching

[chrisash]

I dont have this machine but in the UK they sell a spring tension gauge designed for sewing machines, so you can measure the tension on pulling out from the bobbin as well as the top thread, its a handy way to make a list of different tensions with different threads

[RockyAussie]

1 hour ago, chrisash said:

I dont have this machine but in the UK they sell a spring tension gauge designed for sewing machines, so you can measure the tension on pulling out from the bobbin as well as the top thread, its a handy way to make a list of different tensions with different threads

Now that sounds like a good idea. I'll check out the ebay and get back if I find something.

[RockyAussie]

For those in the US https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Thread-Tension-Gauge/382447551778?hash=item590ba68522:g:3YkAAOxyRhBS5oMu

For us in Aussie land https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Echidna-Thread-Tension-Gauge/281399903744?hash=item4184bdc600:g:OecAAOSwXudbGLB1

And here's a video demo of similar

 

[chrisash]

The reason showing on embroidery machine is with up to 15 seperate needle assemblies on a single machine tensions are a major problem, and some stitch designs may use 15 colours and 30-50 thousand stitches causing a lot of lost time if one colour goes wrong towards the end of a run and not notices for a short time

[Clintock]

@chrisash Thanks!! Not a bad idea to have  one. Make sure you get the same tension on certain projects. Would hate to have to adjust that many threads

@RockyAussie Appreciate ya looking that up and giving us links. 

[JLSleather]

I think that may apply more to fabrics and synthetics... likely far less useful on leather, where firmness, thickness, dryness, and tanning will all affect the material condition and thus also affect the required tensions.  Probably great for manufactured materials which are quality controlled for consistency.

[Clintock]

@JLSleather didn't think about that. Was caught up in the excitement of getting the tensions just right. 

 

[RockyAussie]

I was curious if it would give enough scale for the bigger machines or not so I might get one and try it out. It often comes up on this forum about getting the tension right and It would be handy to be able to advise a starting point rather more than the pull should be firm. When the tension springs get worn or something is stuck under them it would be good to know if 180 grams pressure would be a good starting point or whatever. Maybe some fish scales might be better?

[dikman]

Something fishy about that idea . They might not be sensitive enough, but could be worth a try I suppose.

I tend to rely on calibrated fingers and how the thread feels - very scientific approach .

[RockyAussie]

2 minutes ago, dikman said:

Something fishy about that idea . They might not be sensitive enough, but could be worth a try I suppose.

I tend to rely on calibrated fingers and how the thread feels - very scientific approach .

Once you are used to it calibrated fingers are calibrated but how to translate that to a newbe who has just spent a lot of mula on this wonderful machine..... It would be nice to be able to say something like take your thread up through here and back off your springs untill this 1 litre bottle of milk starts to drop sort of thing if you get what I mean.

[dikman]

I was being a bit facetious, but you're quite right, of course, it would certainly help someone who is struggling to understand these beasties and is having problems. Could be worth a try, but it will rely on someone having one of these testers so they can provide the base-line figures - looks like it's going to be you .

[JLSleather]

Just gonna have to get over it and get used to adjusting it.  WE ALL would love to have a machine that you 'set and forget" (I've actually heard from people who asked for it set up at the dealer so they never need to change it).

BUT ... varying firmness in the leather, thickness variation, thread size and quality, and a GAZILLION other variables all affect the setting -- even just wear on the machine (springs lose some pressure, discs wear ..).

Better to learn how to adjust it yourself.  Ask questions, get advice, and remember what you saw and did.

By the way,.. I wouldn't worry too much about "remembering where it was before".. for some of these reasons.  But if you feel like that helps, a fine tip marker on the dial should be close enough.  If you're a bit ocr, count the threads on teh screw.... (yes, tha's intentional).

[Clintock]

My firm may be different than somebody else's firm. Guy told me one time on a mower part to tighten the bolt till its firm. Well it snapped. So tugging on string my firm would be a least 4-5 pounds. But I reckon if it's too firm it'd bunch the leather up and you could tell. Or if it's not firm enough it'll just lay on top of the leather. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

[garypl]

4 minutes ago, Clintock said:

My firm may be different than somebody else's firm. Guy told me one time on a mower part to tighten the bolt till its firm. Well it snapped. So tugging on string my firm would be a least 4-5 pounds. But I reckon if it's too firm it'd bunch the leather up and you could tell. Or if it's not firm enough it'll just lay on top of the leather. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

I think it comes down to sewing some scraps using the same leather as your project and adjusting until you are satisfied with the stitches in the scrap.  Then sew your project and hope you don’t have any harder or softer spots in the leather.

Gary

[JLSleather]

2 minutes ago, garypl said:

Then sew your project and hope

Yup.

[Evo160K]

We've had this handheld postage scale around here for years, the range is 0-8 ounces.  Might be interesting to actually check the upper and lower tensions on a few leather projects.  Easy enough to do.

 

[Clintock]

I usually test on scraps. A pretty leather worker told me to do that before each piece. As a newbie I have no idea when good is good and bad ain't. I just try get it to look good and not any slack in it. 

Chevk it out evo and let's see. Hell im curious now 

[Bugstruck]

15 hours ago, Clintock said:

My firm may be different than somebody else's firm. Guy told me one time on a mower part to tighten the bolt till its firm. Well it snapped. So tugging on string my firm would be a least 4-5 pounds. But I reckon if it's too firm it'd bunch the leather up and you could tell. Or if it's not firm enough it'll just lay on top of the leather. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

You are correct. These machines have a wide range of threads, materials and applications so you have to be more involved getting things where you want them than on many machines with a narrower range of ability. Basically I don't sew much below 207 thread on the Cowboy but it will go lower for sure. Think Wiz wrote how to dumb one down for the lighter threads. When I started out I had to try them all though, poor Bob. Waste of time except for what I learned about the machine, what it likes and doesn't and what materials it is best suited for. You will from time to time have to adjust bobbin tension. Get it sewing well at current settings and get familiar with how that feels. Once you get a sense of that you can move it around when you have too.

Gauges and the like are fine but you would have to be recording all that and it may be a useful baseline but each sewing operation wants something a little different, unless the materials and thread are reasonably close to what was last sewn. So for me I want to feel it.  If I'm sewing 207 or 277 on mine it would almost never need a bobbin tension adjustment, just where I have it set. Most of us sew predominately in a range of materials. That setting may even be good enough at 346 most days, depends. Drop to 138 though in similar material and it may (likely actually) need to be a tweak tighter for tension on the bobbin. My experience is while I can get mine to sew 92 without any trouble or radical top side adjustments (in materials I sew), I made some mods to the bobbin spring most wouldn't want to attempt and I sure don't recommend. I was new and hard headed, worked out okay but that could have gone wrong. And frankly, now it's a very rare occasion I run that light a thread through it anymore, even though I can.

Bottom line is you center the knot and look at stitch tightness. If the tightness is off enough to matter, it's a bobbin adjustment followed by a re-centering of the knot with the top tension. The more you do it the easier it is and on the Cowboy it's an easy adjustment, just don't over tighten the lock screw on the bobbin spring tension screw (just very lightly snug it) and don't forget to loosen that same lock screw before adjusting the spring screw. The less you have to do this the better but again, there will be times. And you will learn how to put that lower tension in the range (sweet spot) for what is most often sewn. There are things on these machines and others better left alone but tensions are not one of them.   

[Clintock]

I've tried 138. Could never center the knot in 4/5 oz single layer. I mighta been asking too much of the machine. Now it's just 277 top and bottom. I see lots of folks doing 207 on bottom. I don't know the purpose of that. You'd still have to use a bigger needle for 277. So... the smaller thread on bottom wouldn't fill the hole. Is that correct? Smaller thread buries deeper in the leather? Knot harder to center? There's still so much I don't know about the machine. 

[JLSleather]

277/207 works -- I do it frequently.  Still use a 24 needle ( LL ).  Bobbin goes a little further, otherwise not much difference. Sewing holsters, 207 is plenty - but i use 277 for the COSMETICS.

[Clintock]

I don't wanna see daylight through my stitchi holes. Some folks like that but not me. Any daylight with 207 on bottom? 

[JLSleather]

No.  All of these done with 277 /  207, and #24 LL point needle.

Edited June 18, 2018 by JLSleather

[JLSleather]

  Oh, and this one, which may be a little more visible stitching ...

[Clintock]

Those look pretty darn good! 

On another note... made no adjustments and machine started doing it again. Keeps it up and I'll have a cowboy 3200 for sale!!

[Bugstruck]

56 minutes ago, Clintock said:

Those look pretty darn good! 

On another note... made no adjustments and machine started doing it again. Keeps it up and I'll have a cowboy 3200 for sale!!

Indeed, good looking holster work there.

Hang in there, we've all wanted to kick our machines at times. The more you learn these machines the easier it gets but they can surprise us even then. Most of the time it is an easy find, not always. Two more items, don't think I mentioned in this particular thread??

1. Make sure that after you wind the bobbin and cut the tail it pulls back in, get it flush at minimum. I've had a wayward tail (maybe 1/8" or a little more) chopping up the bottom tension once and that took me some time to spot it. I only had that once but I know what to look for now.

2. Be aware that sewing single ply, depending the nature of that leather and thickness, with the higher tensions we run at this thread weight, can cause an occasional stitch to pop through. Very rarely, unless doing decorative stitching, do I sew single ply. Others may know better on that. I do know two plys give the knot a better resting place. You pop it through or (nearly through is good and safe) the bottom ply and it has a place to park, between the plys. If you've ever sewn two layers of ballistic nylon you know that one could go bonkers trying to center a knot . Two on bottom, one on top, two centered, etc. That material is an exaggeration of the issue here but it is representative of what 1 ply sewing can sometimes create. Thinner the material, heavier the thread, and higher the tensions the more likely it is in my experience. When I rarely sew single ply leather I have the knot favor the bottom a little to mitigate pop through. You could back the top tension off until you just occasionally see the knot on the bottom, back the bottom tension off a tweak, not enough to re-center it or get you too far out of a workable range, and then move the knot around a little with top tension. If you reduce the tug of war and loosen the stitch a little it may help on single ply sewing, all else being correct. Worth a try perhaps?  

Are you getting occasional knots on top with two plys? You may have covered that and I missed it? Think you said 4-5 oz was the weight.

I assume you are not fighting any frayed thread, correct? Didn't see any.