Troubleshooting Turn Shoes

[blueblade3000]

I'm working on my first leather project, a pair of Jorvik turnshoes. I found a few tutorials online and feel like I understand the technique, but I ran into an issue with execution.

I'm trying what one tutorial refers to as an "edge-flesh" stitch, stitching through the flesh side and coming out of the edge at an angle. This is with veg tan sole bend from Tandy Leather. The problem is that the sole bend is tearing very easily, sort of separating and losing its integrity. 

I think one problem might be that my stitch holes are too close together at about 1/8 of an inch. But even after punching the awl through the first hole, I could see the problem. What am I doing wrong or what can remedy this? Should I wet or oil the leather? 

Edited October 13, 2018 by blueblade3000

[kiwican]

Pics are always useful when trying to trouble shoot a problem!

[fredk]

a. your leather is too soft

b. the leather is too thin for your thread and stitches. Thread and hole should be no more that 1/4 thickness of the leather for going via the edge

[Matt S]

I've never made shoes but soling bend that tears? That doesnt sound like the soling leather I've handled or used. I suspect either the leather is substandard or you're pounding a very blunt awl through the stuff.

[blueblade3000]

I can't upload a picture right now as I'd have to reduce the quality due to permissions, and I don't know how to do that on my phone. 

The leather is 1/4 inch thick, but one of the needles I'm using has a "spoon shaped" flat section that's over 1/16. I suspect that's my mistake. 

As far as sole bend tearing, on a test piece, if I pierce through, it pretty easily tears if I try. A little twist of the awl will do it. Is that abnormal? 

[fredk]

55 minutes ago, blueblade3000 said:

I can't upload a picture right now as I'd have to reduce the quality due to permissions, and I don't know how to do that on my phone.

Some one else found if they emailed the photo to themselves the phone reduced the photo size

55 minutes ago, blueblade3000 said:

The leather is 1/4 inch thick, but one of the needles I'm using has a "spoon shaped" flat section that's over 1/16. I suspect that's my mistake.

I never did grain - edge on shoes, only on knife sheaths. I used a thin parallel sided diamond section curved awl to make the holes and a thin curved saddlers needle to sew

55 minutes ago, blueblade3000 said:

As far as sole bend tearing, on a test piece, if I pierce through, it pretty easily tears if I try. A little twist of the awl will do it. Is that abnormal? 

yes, its far too soft, a little twist of the awl should make the leather bend round, not split

 

[Aven]

Blueblade, using an awl to make your holes first may help.  You need to use a curved awl.  Start about 3/8 back from the edge.  Start the hole go in about a third and kinda pivot the awl so it slides along the blade curve and aim to come out about 2/3rds down from the top edge.  It's easier to do the holes before hand.

 

This is a picture of a curved awl that Jason Horvatter from Laughing Crowe sells.  Jason also teaches shoe making.  One of the styles he teaches is a turnshoe.  If you can't get to one of his classes, check out the turnshoe video he did.  Well worth the price.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Aven

[blueblade3000]

https://imgur.com/a/jHI0Nj0

The picture with the tear-through is the test piece I intentionally tore.

How close together should my stitch holes be? 

[blueblade3000]

The sole itself did not tear through, but it seems to want to separate like flaky pastry. And I think a couple of the holes joined together as the thread "cut" through, but I couldn't tell for sure. 

[Aven]

That sole leather looks thick, but not compressed like it should for a sole bend.  I'm seeing some shallow holes.  It's easy to go too shallow and rip through.

My stitches are spaced about 3/8" apart.

[Matt S]

@blueblade3000 I'm no expert at edge-stitching but hopefully this will hope a little. It's not pretty but was, at the very least, a fun way to spend my tea break.

Managed to find a bit of 4mm sole leather from the scrap bin (which came from someone else's scrap bin). Notice that it's very firm and compressed. I've edge sewn it to a piece of 2mm chrome tan, which is probably a similar thickness and temper to what you'll be using for an upper. 6mm (4SPI) spacing. The stitch line is approx the same distance from the edge of each piece of leather as its own thickness.

I used a curved awl that I got years ago, swore at, and threw in the cupboard. Wouldn't pierce anything out the box except my left hand but gave it a quick lick on the belt grinder and it did the job. Not the best edge but this is only for half a dozen stitches. It took a bit of welly to push the awl through the sole leather but no hammering needed. If I ever get around to making a pair of shoes I'll sharpen it properly.

Thread is some old waxed red 18/7 linen that I thought would show up well. (Needle was John James 00 for all you rivet counters out there.)

The intention is, of course, to press the awl through the edge of the leather at around the middle of the thickness. You will see that the bottom hole in my sample tore out -- it was too shallow, probably a third to a quarter the thickness of the leather. I found that a rotating movement was needed with my wrist at the same time as pushing from the right to the left. Unlike a harness awl, which is diamond shaped, this curved awl is oval shaped. It has two cutting edges. (In this way it matches awl finds from Jorvik.) I found that a gentle left-right wiggle helped to ease the awl through the more difficult bits once the awl was into the leather about 1mm. I suspect that this is much more acceptable with 1/4" spacing than 1/8".

[bootsmt]

You need to sand the flaky stuff off. It doesn't look like you have good leather from the photo. You want a solid leather . After you sand off the fleshy stuff case the leather ( soak it in tepid water until completely wet) and wrap it in a paper bag then sit over night. Next day when it is just damp hammer it lightly to firm it a bit. When dry place your holes about 1/4" apart or slightly shorter come out about 1/2 way through the outside edge. I like to start about 3/8" back from the edge when I start my holes. If the leather keeps ripping then watch how you are placing the SHARP awl into the leather  and if that is correct then you may need better leather. Bootsmt

[blueblade3000]

Thank you all for the guidance. Looks like I need the right awl and to prep this leather. I will probably pick up that video on turnshoe making also. Great forum, you've been very helpful! 

[chrisash]

Nigel Armatage does a video on box stitch where he punches each piece with the pricking iron and then sews the tqo together, i wonder if you could do similar as the only difference is one is flat and the other at 90 degree, but pricking through each side would appear to give a more consistant stitch route

Will admit i have not tried it apart from a test of box stitch copying Nigel so in no way experienced to make the suggestion

[Aven]

5 hours ago, Matt S said:

@blueblade3000

...I used a curved awl that I got years ago, swore at, and threw in the cupboard. Wouldn't pierce anything out the box except my left hand but gave it a quick lick on the belt grinder and it did the job. Not the best edge but this is only for half a dozen stitches. It took a bit of welly to push the awl through the sole leather but no hammering needed. If I ever get around to making a pair of shoes I'll sharpen it properly....

A proper sharpening and stropping it will make all the difference in the world.  It should just glide in.

If you look at the trailer for the video, you'll see Jason use the curved awl to make the holes in the soles.