PFAFF 1245 tensioner issue

[katit]

Need some advice/guidance on thread tension setup in my machine.

Here is what happening now. I use 92 thread with 22 needle, works great. I used following video to thread machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35zxtSRFXwQ

Next I try to set bottom tension to be not so tight. I didn't know how it should be but I thought it should be just little tight. Just like this video shows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41R2Og1AELE

Well, it doesn't work. If I do this - then bottom thread get's pulled up and I run out of adjustment on top thread (nut come off).

I had to barely put top adjustment on and then tighten bottom until I got good seam. Now bottom thread is not as easy to pull as on a video. When I finish a seam, raise needle and need to pull work - there is considerable resistance.

Is that normal or I should do something about? Or it's OK because I'm approaching thread size limit of machine? Seam itself seem to be good, no wrinkling, tight.

 

P.S. I think it's important to know that thread is "Tandy" brand polyester. I'm still waiting on my package from thread exchange

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by katit

[Pintodeluxe]

Manual for the 1245 shows not to go around the pin on the tension disc.  I never go around that pin.  That one change would add some tension inherently to the upper thread path.  It might be so much that you are "out of range" and the bobbin case tension cannot make up for it.

I know there are differences of opinion on this one, but lots of people thread the 1245 that way at first.  It looks like the thread will fall out of the tension discs if you don't go around the pin.  In my experience with the 1245, the thread has never fallen out of the tension discs... even when you don't go around the pin.   

Bobbin tension should feel really pretty light in normal use.   

Edited October 15, 2018 by Pintodeluxe

[Wizcrafts]

A number 22 needle is way to big for #92 thread. I use a #19 and get easy to position placement of the knots. The holes are tighter with a #19 needle, allowing you to have more leeway with the top and bottom tension adjustments.

[katit]

39 minutes ago, Pintodeluxe said:

Manual for the 1245 shows not to go around the pin on the tension disc.  I never go around that pin.  That one change would add some tension inherently to the upper thread path.  It might be so much that you are "out of range" and the bobbin case tension cannot make up for it.

I know there are differences of opinion on this one, but lots of people thread the 1245 that way at first.  It looks like the thread will fall out of the tension discs if you don't go around the pin.  In my experience with the 1245, the thread has never fallen out of the tension discs... even when you don't go around the pin.   

Bobbin tension should feel really pretty light in normal use.   

Interesting. This is how I was shown in a store to thread (not around a pin). Then I found video and "fixed" it.

Another mistake I found is bobbin direction. I put it on with thread "clock-wise" which seemed natural to me how thread will exit. Changed that now too.

 

33 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

A number 22 needle is way to big for #92 thread. I use a #19 and get easy to position placement of the knots. The holes are tighter with a #19 needle, allowing you to have more leeway with the top and bottom tension adjustments.

Hm. I read a lot of different auto-upholster forums and that's what people use. 92 with 22 needle. Or 138 with same needle if decorative seam needed..

That's what I was given with machine..

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, katit said:

Hm. I read a lot of different auto-upholster forums and that's what people use. 92 with 22 needle. Or 138 with same needle if decorative seam needed..

That's what I was given with machine..

Using a needle 3 sizes larger than optimum pokes oversized holes that don't hold the thread lockstitch knots firmly in place. Further, the appearance of the stitches will be shorter because of the larger holes at each end of each stitch.

[katit]

44 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Using a needle 3 sizes larger than optimum pokes oversized holes that don't hold the thread lockstitch knots firmly in place. Further, the appearance of the stitches will be shorter because of the larger holes at each end of each stitch.

That makes sense, thank you! I ordered some Schmetz #19 and Organ #20 needles, will see how it works.

But for now the best I was able to do is here... See top image - both vinyl and leather look decent. However, bottoms on vinyl look OK and leather look ugly. Is that a problem with oversized needle or something else? 

Also, in theory doesn't matter what material thickness if you setup tension correctly for thread/needle - it should work, right? I'm asking because now I'm setting it with 2 layers of vinyl/leather. But my actual sewing will involve layers of sew foam in-between.

 

 

[katit]

After posting pictures I noticed that it looks like not enough tension on top (judging by blue vinyl bottom)

So, I did another run inside after adjusting little (tighten top). Still little loose.

 

I did yet another adjustment and did inner most run. Now it looks like vinyl is perfect. But leather looks horrible on a bottom.

 

[Wizcrafts]

Once you get the smaller needles the bottom appearance will improve. You will also be able to tighten the top thread for a tighter lay on the surfaces.

Did you order leather point needles?

[katit]

24 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Once you get the smaller needles the bottom appearance will improve. You will also be able to tighten the top thread for a tighter lay on the surfaces.

Did you order leather point needles?

So, for what I have it's normal? I am new to this, don't even know what "proper" look should be. When you say "tighter" - isn't it a function of tightening bottom (and, in turn, top) ? Right now bottom have some resistance and top is close to maxing out on loosening.

I ordered Schmetz #19 standard (R)

and Organ #20 LR

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, katit said:

So, for what I have it's normal? I am new to this, don't even know what "proper" look should be. When you say "tighter" - isn't it a function of tightening bottom (and, in turn, top) ? Right now bottom have some resistance and top is close to maxing out on loosening.

I ordered Schmetz #19 standard (R)

and Organ #20 LR

You will see the difference when you install each of those needles and sew test strips. There is nothing to be gained from me spouting off my opinion before you have a chance to try it for yourself.

[katit]

I tried #20 LR and #19R. No visible difference on top stitch, with LR I get straight stitch on a bottom.

Top definitely tighter, smaller hole.

[Pintodeluxe]

Looks good from here!  

[katit]

Forgot to ask simple question. Maybe I'm missing something. In my machine needle shank is just round. I can install it pretty much any way I want. What I was doing is using needle threader to get it where hole is inline with main shaft. But obviously it's not 100%. I would expect needles to be ground on left side for the screw but they aren't. How do you install them?

[R8R]

35 minutes ago, katit said:

Forgot to ask simple question. Maybe I'm missing something. In my machine needle shank is just round. I can install it pretty much any way I want. What I was doing is using needle threader to get it where hole is inline with main shaft. But obviously it's not 100%. I would expect needles to be ground on left side for the screw but they aren't. How do you install them?

They are round because there might be different orientations of the needle depending on what machine it's going into. One needle system might fit dozens of different machines.

Home machine needles almost always orient one way, hence the flat machined into it.

The needle should be oriented always with the scarf (the thinner relieved area above the eye) toward the hook. The hook "hooks" the thread loop in the scarf.

Edited October 23, 2018 by R8R
spellings

[katit]

Understood. Then I just do what I did? Eyeball position? I was thinking there is some trick on installing needle "precisely". Or maybe turning it right/left slightly will affect something.

[R8R]

4 minutes ago, katit said:

Understood. Then I just do what I did? Eyeball position? I was thinking there is some trick on installing needle "precisely". Or maybe turning it right/left slightly will affect something.

I just eyeball it. (with reading glasses on...)

[katit]

Got it. Another question about needle I just thought about..

What is signs of "dull" needle? When you change needle, do you keep it or get rid of it? I read somewhere to get rid of old needles and not mix with new. Especially that sizes is almost impossible to read..

I'm most likely going to change from 19/20 to 22 when doing french seams and vice versa

 

Q2: Does tension work the same for all materials? For example, I did 2 layers of vinyl, looks good. I did 3 layers of leather and had to make adjustment to top tension. To me it looks like vinyl looked good because it's thin/soft and I didn't notice difference. With thicker leather thread tension misadjustment became more visible. It almost seems like I need to adjust thread tension on thicker/tougher material and then it will be good for thinner stuff. Am I correct or it's wrong?

[Wizcrafts]

4 hours ago, katit said:

Got it. Another question about needle I just thought about..

What is signs of "dull" needle? When you change needle, do you keep it or get rid of it? I read somewhere to get rid of old needles and not mix with new. Especially that sizes is almost impossible to read..

I'm most likely going to change from 19/20 to 22 when doing french seams and vice versa

 

Q2: Does tension work the same for all materials? For example, I did 2 layers of vinyl, looks good. I did 3 layers of leather and had to make adjustment to top tension. To me it looks like vinyl looked good because it's thin/soft and I didn't notice difference. With thicker leather thread tension misadjustment became more visible. It almost seems like I need to adjust thread tension on thicker/tougher material and then it will be good for thinner stuff. Am I correct or it's wrong?

Take the needle out every now and then and feel the tip with a fingertip. If you feel a burr, toss it out. If you are down to your last needle, pull it across Emory cloth to de-burr it, then polish it on a piece of veg-tan leather that has jewelers' rouge on it (like you strop a carving knife blade).

Vinyl is trivial to penetrate and pull lockstitch knots into, even with undersize needles. Leather is not. You will almost always need more top tension, or less bobbin tension, or a bigger needle to bury the knots inside leather. The denser or thicker the leather, the larger the needle, or higher the top facing tension needs to be upped.

[katit]

17 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Vinyl is trivial to penetrate and pull lockstitch knots into, even with undersize needles. Leather is not. You will almost always need more top tension, or less bobbin tension, or a bigger needle to bury the knots inside leather. The denser or thicker the leather, the larger the needle, or higher the top facing tension needs to be upped.

Got it! Makes sense, then my theory not good and I need to setup tension whenever I deal with different materials...

[Wizcrafts]

4 hours ago, katit said:

Got it! Makes sense, then my theory not good and I need to setup tension whenever I deal with different materials...

Different densities and thicknesses.

[katit]

Need some advice on what to look for. I was practicing with vinyl (automotive) and machine didn't give me any single issue. 10 layers? No problem. fast, slow - no problem.

I finally decided to start practicing with real stuff, leather. Got 2 hides of eBay ($50 shipped!!!) - strictly for practicing, cheap enough but real stuff.

Anyway. Started doing some seams and I hear "pop" sound and bottom thread goes in loops (see pic below). Then I realized that thread coming off the tensioner (see picture). It should stay between 2 plates but it just pops out for some reason. I should say that I did increase tension about 1 turn on top when switched to leather.

However, just to check - I took some vinyl and did bunch of sewing - not problem.

Switched to 2 layers of this leather - within 5 inches I hear "pop" and thread comes off.

 

Any pointers on what I should look for?

[Wizcrafts]

Take the tension disks off and clean and polish them. Remove any thread fragments you find near the threaded shaft. Make sure that the thread has some back pressure before it gets to the tension disks. This helps keep the thread deep inside the disks.

[katit]

8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Take the tension disks off and clean and polish them. Remove any thread fragments you find near the threaded shaft. Make sure that the thread has some back pressure before it gets to the tension disks. This helps keep the thread deep inside the disks.

Thanks! When you say "need some back pressure". How do I achieve that? I can see that the way it's threaded now - 3 holes missed. You see right there on a picture it's only in one hole. And above there is a rod on top with 4 holes, only 2 used. I used instructions I found to thread machine. Maybe for leather I need to put thread through all of those?

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, katit said:

Thanks! When you say "need some back pressure". How do I achieve that? I can see that the way it's threaded now - 3 holes missed. You see right there on a picture it's only in one hole. And above there is a rod on top with 4 holes, only 2 used. I used instructions I found to thread machine. Maybe for leather I need to put thread through all of those?

Yep. Thread through all of the holes.

 

[katit]

Thanks! Seems like this problem fixed also I'm not sure what it was. I use polyester thread from thread exchange (gray one) #92. It leaves some kind of white "wax" on parts. Between tension disks there was some of this wax, but nothing else. Not thread, etc. Pretty clean.

I left machine threaded as is and it started to sew properly without an issue. Weird if it was this piece of wax..

P.S. Now I'm back to my problem with stitch appearance, will post in topic I created before..