Rose Round knife! New! (To me!)

[YinTx]

So, Merry Christmas to me!  Managed to acquire a Rose round knife, and I have been looking for a nice round knife for over a year now.  Hoping to get some experts to chime in and tell me what they can about this knife - age, condition, value, etc.  These photos were taken as I was sharpening it, only using the 1200 grit Atoma stone, and followed up with a broken little natural stone I have, then some stropping, it is push cut sharp on a piece of paper.  The burr took forever to work off!

I am curious about the beveling that you can see in the close up photo of the edge.  It looks like 3 bevels:  a gradual, then a steeper, and finally the cutting bevel.  Is this an original bevel?  seems to have never been sharpened on the 2 big bevels?  I don't see any wear or any metal loss on the edge beyond the bevel I put, so I did very little work on it.

I like the patina, but worry about continued rust.  Do I need to do something to condition the metal?  Can I just use some steel wool on the lettering to remove the rust, or should i be using vinegar or some such thing?

The brass ferrule has a bit of a hangnail on it that is fairly sharp.  Can I file it off, or will that degrade value?  Also, the handle looks like it was burned at one time - how much of an issue is this?  I don't know if I like the handle patina enough to leave it alone or not, but if it affects the future value too much if I fiddle with it, I will leave it alone.

YinTx

 

[billybopp]

Congrats!  These older round knives are really great tools, whether collector or user.  I've been looking for a rose, myself if I find one in good condition at a good price.  Not that I need it, I have a Gomph and a CS Osborne that I love to use, but I live in the West Philadelphia neighborhood where that one was made and think it'd be kinda nifty to return one to its home!

W. Rose is still around, but has moved several miles outside of Philadelphia now, and are known for their masonry tools.  Unlike most of the other leather tool makers, Rose seems to have ONLY made round knives - no edgers or anything of that sort.  I'm not a collector, but AFAIK they aren't super rare, and seem to be a bit more rare than CS Osbornes, Gomphs, and some others and hence take a little higher price.   

As you have discovered, the Rose knives are known for being considerably harder than others!  So they can be a bitch to get sharp, but tend to hold that edge extremely well.  I wish I could tell you more about the bevels, but again I'm not really an expert.  

As far as patina and collectibility is concerned, my own thoughts are remove any rust that you can get at.  It's rust, not patina, and will deteriorate the steel with time.  If fine steel wool won't get at it, chemicals might be the ticket, but get rid of the rust.  I use paste wax on my blades to protect them.  For the rest, I don't entirely agree with the trend toward "preserve the patina" and think it's really overdone.  In most cases, it's corrosion and dirt to me.  Take off as much "patina" as you need to make it usable if you intend it for a user.  If you intend it for a collector, THEN worry about the value and leave the dirt!     My Gomph came pretty clean, so I keep it that way.  The Osborne was not so clean.  I left the blade alone, but the handle was sticky in my hand (GROSS), so I cleaned that up.

Maybe somebody that knows more about collector value will come along and give you better advice, but above is my take!

Hope that helps!

- Bill

[YinTx]

48 minutes ago, billybopp said:

As far as patina and collectibility is concerned, my own thoughts are remove any rust that you can get at.  It's rust, not patina, and will deteriorate the steel with time.  If fine steel wool won't get at it, chemicals might be the ticket, but get rid of the rust. 

Thanks for that ton of info you shared.  I agree on the rust:  I want it out of the lettering.  The blackening on the blade I think would be patina, and I am fine with that. Unless someone tells me otherwise!  I do intend this for a user, but I like to preserve value when I can.  I can manage using the handle that way, but if it doesn't affect value one way or another, then I don't mind replacing it either.

Since you have been on the lookout for a Rose yourself, would you consider this one decent condition or no?  And what would you have considered a good price for it? I'm wondering if I got a deal or a rip off, lol.

YinTx

[Sceaden]

With an antique knife I have from the 1800's I found that soaking the blade in mineral oil and then taking a brass or stiff plastic brush to it cleaned it up nicely while maintaining the patina. 

Once you clear that rust up I would just use light oil and when stored in your clean, dry table area it shouldn't give you any further issues. 

[alexitbe]

Nice to see an old tool brought back to life and used...

Alex

[billybopp]

7 hours ago, YinTx said:

Thanks for that ton of info you shared.  I agree on the rust:  I want it out of the lettering.  The blackening on the blade I think would be patina, and I am fine with that. Unless someone tells me otherwise!  I do intend this for a user, but I like to preserve value when I can.  I can manage using the handle that way, but if it doesn't affect value one way or another, then I don't mind replacing it either.

Since you have been on the lookout for a Rose yourself, would you consider this one decent condition or no?  And what would you have considered a good price for it? I'm wondering if I got a deal or a rip off, lol.

YinTx

From what I have seen, I'd expect that one to go for something like $100. In really good condition, more like $150+.  @bruce johnsoncould give a better idea on value for this knife.  I looked at his website, and found a bit more info there: It seems that they made these from around the end of the Civil War to around the beginning of WWI It's in decent condition without very much pitting on the blade, and  most of the blade still there.  It's got MANY years of useful life left!

As for the handle and ferule, I think I'd leave it unless it's uncomfortable to use. The dents, dings and burn detract some from the value, but they also tell a story.  We don't know exactly what that story is, but its kind of fun to look and wonder what happened.  My guess would be set down too close to a burner used to heat a creaser, what's yours?

BTW, it's interesting to note that the design of this knife is good enough that Terry Knipschield decided to make a copy and include it in his lineup. 

- Bill

Edited December 10, 2018 by billybopp

[bruce johnson]

Nice blade - ok handle. Here is my take on the old "patina vs. restoration" discussion. Unless you are hanging it up to look at, get it off. The old single name makers (J English, Crawford, et al) have collectible value as a display pieces. Light patina and original are a plus. Remove and arrest the rust and call it good.  Rose knives were production type knives and lots of them out there. I think their value is more as a user. 

First thing I would do is get the curl of metal off the ferrule. It isn't adding any value and is a detractant to use. For the metal I start with rust removal. I might use a rust chelator solution like EvapoRust or MetalRescue. Usually I am batching knives to work them and put them in my blast cabinet to remove the rust , especially in the name stamped areas. Either way works. Then I go to a wire wheel and knock off everything loose. Before I got the cabinet and variable speed knife grinder I would go through the grits with papers or steels wool to clean the surface everywhere, not just the cutting edge. It can be eye opening at the point as the "patina" starts coming off as a nice pumpkin orange color - rust. What some people call patina, I call polished burnished rust. I get it down to a near mirror finish. I'm going to say right here that there may be some shallower pits you may not be able to totally rub or grind out without making divots. I get to where 99% of them are gone and call it good. Some knives are too far gone to get that good, and some will clean up with no pits left. Rose knives are a little more notorious for pitting. You've already found out the hardness of the steel stropping the burr off. These and the older English&Huber knives are the hardest I've dealt with. You get an edge on them and they'll hold it a good long time. 

The handle has been burned at some point. I would go through a few grits of sandpaper to clean it up, smooth it up, and knock the black off the burned area. You probalby won't get it totally even and symmetrical but it'll be better. Some Rose knife handles have a really pretty grain pattern and others are plain Jane. 

These knives take a bunch of time. On average by hand I used to have about 8 hours total in a Rose knife. I thought I was really slow. I was visiting Keith Pommer several years ago and remarked about a nice Rose he had. He told me he had 7 hours in it and probably another hour left. I didn't feel so bad.

[alexitbe]

Thanks Bruce.. .That's an interesting post, although I will never try it.....  sinceI'm still too scared to sharpen my round knife...

[YinTx]

10 hours ago, alexitbe said:

Nice to see an old tool brought back to life and used...

Alex

I have wanted one to keep as a "user" I think this fits the bill!

5 hours ago, billybopp said:

I'd expect that one to go for something like $100

Managed to get it for much less than that, so I think I did ok.

5 hours ago, billybopp said:

As for the handle and ferule, I think I'd leave it unless it's uncomfortable to use. The dents, dings and burn detract some from the value, but they also tell a story.  We don't know exactly what that story is, but its kind of fun to look and wonder what happened.  My guess would be set down too close to a burner used to heat a creaser, what's yours?

BTW, it's interesting to note that the design of this knife is good enough that Terry Knipschield decided to make a copy and include it in his lineup. 

It is uncomfortable with the "hangnail" since it is pretty sharp.  My guess was the same as yours, alcohol lamp, but I suppose it could have been anything.  The knife is well shaped, and inspires confidence.  The blade is thinner than I expected and has a ring to it.  I think I'm going to enjoy it!

11 hours ago, Sceaden said:

With an antique knife I have from the 1800's I found that soaking the blade in mineral oil and then taking a brass or stiff plastic brush to it cleaned it up nicely while maintaining the patina. 

Once you clear that rust up I would just use light oil and when stored in your clean, dry table area it shouldn't give you any further issues. 

After I clean it up, I have some Tsubaki Oil (Cammellia oil) that I'll treat it with, should help preserve it well.

 

2 hours ago, bruce johnson said:

Nice blade - ok handle. Here is my take on the old "patina vs. restoration" discussion. Unless you are hanging it up to look at, get it off. The old single name makers (J English, Crawford, et al) have collectible value as a display pieces. Light patina and original are a plus. Remove and arrest the rust and call it good.  Rose knives were production type knives and lots of them out there. I think their value is more as a user. 

Bruce, thank you for chiming in here, I really appreciate it.  I intend to use this knife, so I'll take your advice and put some time filing the ferrule and cleaning up the blade, perhaps the black is just oil soaked rust, time to see what is underneath!  I'm curious to see if the handle has a nice grain or not.  I probably should have cleaned it up before I sharpened it, to avoid any opportunity of cuts etc, but I was just too anxious to know if I could get a nice clean edge on it.  In about 30 minutes or so I had a scary sharp edge, so, yeah!  May have to purposely dull it so I can safely clean it up now.  I can see some pretty deep pits in the body of the blade, you can see them in the photos.  I don't expect those to come out.

Speaking of hardness, has anyone tried to get a Rockwell reading on one?  Would they vary much due to manufacturing techniques of the day?

YinTx

[YinTx]

I decided to leave the handle for "patina" and shine up the blade as best I could, figuring this was the best for longevity and functionality of the knife.  If I ever change my mind on the handle, not a big deal.

Four hours into it...and then the arthritis took over and I had to give it a break.  Suppose I could take it down further,  but not sure it is worth it.  I like the look,  tried to make sure nothing that touches leather would have pits or scratches/grind marks, which took the majority of my time, since those grind marks were pretty deep...  all done by hand with varying grits of sandpaper/emory cloth.  I spent more time on the back of the blade than the front.  From 1 foot away, this thing looks shiny.  Up close with the camera shows the discoloration in the blade. When my hands recover, I'll get to sharpening it again...

YinTx