SilverForgeStudio

Not exactly a Leather sewing question... BUT

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If this needs to be in the "HOW DO I DO THAT" forum Apologies- Im not sure where to put it!

Hello guys and gals- hope all are warm and dry-ish if youre caught up in the vortex! 

Got a question about a machine I am starting to use- Im trying to "learn" techniques and playing with lighter thinner 2-3 oz upholstery leather and upholstery weight canvas. So its not strictly about leather. But so far this forum has been the spot-on resource about everything else Ive done for research and investigation for machines so here goes!

So I have a Singer 4411 (Domestic heavy).  Like the machine but can NOT figure out the "birds nesting" issues- I will post more today including pictures- but to start:

  1. Re-threaded the UPPER side multiple times making sure thread is in the tension springs on the take-up arm and thread path.
  2. re-wound the bobbin as well and re-installed it to rotate counter-clockwise (per manual)
  3. tried holding tension on the threads when I start
  4. adjusted thread tension dial from upper to lower range (on this machine from 5-ish to between 2-3)
  5. went UP in tension as well from the 4-5 range to about an 8 (this just broke threads faster)
  6. using same thread weight on upper and lower- Coats and Clark extra strong 100% nylon that is "70 TEX" size or 3 ply 15 weight
  7. different colors in bobbin and top to see the difference in tensions/nesting
  8. using 18 needle size with "diamond tip" and its installed correctly (flat of needle to rear with groove on rear and threaded from front)

Problems are:

  1. thread breaking in the upper take up arm and needle
  2. needle jams and will not advance- when I get needle out its a birds nest of top thread loops

What am I doing wrong? (Besides trying to learn to sew!- HA!) Thoughts?

Pictures when I can get to the camera later today!

Edited by SilverForgeStudio
added info

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Have you tried a new needle?

Tom

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You should hold back the starting threads when you begin sewing. Failure to do so allows the hook to pull the top thread inside the shuttle, jamming it up and halting the machine (and even throwing the timing out).

You are using the correct combination of thread and needle "size," but maybe the wrong point. Since your layers are mixed leather and cloth and the thread is thin, you should use a round point needle instead of leather point (which cuts fabric badly).

Pulling knots up into leather requires much more top spring tension than cloth. Crank down the foot pressure and top thread tension until the stitches are hidden between the layers.

It is also possible that the machine has already been thrown out of time, causing the broken thread and birdsnests.

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If I am not mistake the groove in the needle should be facing the direction the thread enters the eye of the needle. So just turn the needle around so the groove is facing you.

kgg

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20 hours ago, Northmount said:

Have you tried a new needle?

Tom

Yes- and took the original under the scope- no visual difference from a new needle- not out of concentricity or turned tip... Going to switch needle styles next. Thanks!

20 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

You should hold back the starting threads when you begin sewing. Failure to do so allows the hook to pull the top thread inside the shuttle, jamming it up and halting the machine (and even throwing the timing out).

You are using the correct combination of thread and needle "size," but maybe the wrong point. Since your layers are mixed leather and cloth and the thread is thin, you should use a round point needle instead of leather point (which cuts fabric badly).

Pulling knots up into leather requires much more top spring tension than cloth. Crank down the foot pressure and top thread tension until the stitches are hidden between the layers.

It is also possible that the machine has already been thrown out of time, causing the broken thread and birdsnests.

As always- thank you Wiz! I am holding the threads- and using a Schmertz round needle (what was recommended for the canvas)- Im a bit hesitant to try the Leather point needles as of yet as my first attempt with these was like a rabid porcupine on steriods eating my little strip of flimsy garment weight... I did NOT expect the pedal on the machine to be THAT sensitive... I not only had a birds nest- the needle mutilated the surface.

As for the tension- Im going to have to play with that number a LOT it would seem.

 To your last point- I would hope the machine isnt out of time already- it was a new in the box item (not counting the delivery and shipping drops/dings and box hits it suffered before arriving). But that being said- If this continues Im going to be putting it in for a checkup!

19 hours ago, kgg said:

If I am not mistake the groove in the needle should be facing the direction the thread enters the eye of the needle. So just turn the needle around so the groove is facing you.

kgg

Thanks Kgg! On this machine its still a "domestic" so the flat face of the needle goes to the rear and that places the groove away from the operator. Had to confirm that and thanks for reminding me its different on other machines!

19 hours ago, Yetibelle said:

Here is a handy chart... 

 

Yetibelle- chat is printed and saved to go on the wall- thanks- easy way to get the info across to an analog/visual guy like me!

 

OK folks- I have pictures but can not upload them for whatever reason... attempt #2 tonight... 

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2 hours ago, SilverForgeStudio said:

OK folks- I have pictures but can not upload them for whatever reason... attempt #2 tonight... 

Resize your photos to fit.  http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/15122-how-to-post-pictures-on-lw/?do=findComment&comment=551171

Tom

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I hate to tell you,we service a lot of these models & the term Heavy Duty is more of a sales pitch than a machine made for heavy material.If you want to sew thin leather or any other heavier material you would stand a much  better chance  by getting an old black Singer 15-91 they are built very similar to an Industrial machine & take #69 nylon thread w/o much problems.

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6 hours ago, Northmount said:

Tom- Thanks for the thread- that will definitely help! Im also dealing with a firewall issue with my ISP portal... So Im not sure what the problem is. 

5 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

I hate to tell you,we service a lot of these models & the term Heavy Duty is more of a sales pitch than a machine made for heavy material.If you want to sew thin leather or any other heavier material you would stand a much  better chance  by getting an old black Singer 15-91 they are built very similar to an Industrial machine & take #69 nylon thread w/o much problems.

Totally understood Bob- it was a bit of a gift so Im not complaining... Ive got my eye out for a few machines- Had a deal on a Singer 29K71 but it fell through. Ive got a Japan Clone of a Singer 15 and it will do a fair bit of denim- have not tried anything close to a 69 thread in it or the canvas/leather mix. 

Just learning and trying to find my way- I truly appreciate the assistance and help with  not only the machines but the pictures! 

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