Skiver restoration project and questions

[katit]

So, I got this skiver and it needs TLC. From what I can tell after watching cechaflo videos on YouTube - it's missing some pieces.

A. Right belts cover, B. Spring on arm which moves roller. Not sure what the purpose of it yet.

I also figured this is kind that feeds and rotates blade at the same time, no separate drive. I can adjust speed by moving belt between 3 different positions.

Questions to public:

1. Does anybody know this model of skiver? It's labeled privately or was it a big company? I assume it's clone of Fortuna, but which model?
2. Does anybody know where to buy parts? I need small belt on right and I need that tiny belt which drives sharpener wheel. I may reuse old one, but if they are available I'd rather get a replacement.
3. Is there manuals/service manuals available?
4. Does this paint look original? It's flaking opening up gray/red under paint. It seems like it was painted over but long time ago, did they come with painted knobs?
5. Any general advice on cleaning surface rust and making all knobs/handles look great?

Edited February 11, 2019 by katit

[katit]

Well. It's either going to be assembled back or not

Good stuff: I found missing spring part on aliexpress. I also found this thin belt and additional pressure feet. And new cutter.

Bad stuff: I miss 3 screws on machine and belt cover. None of this is critical but I will make those bolts so it's all complete. 

After reading all archives I found info that if main shaft with bell knife bent - it's not going to be good. Checked and it's within 1thou. Not bad.

Can't figure out how to take main pulley off. I took left-threaded bolt out but it seems that other piece pressed in. Still need to figure out how to take it off.

Machine was green and some point, then it was spray painted over with gray-ish paint which preserved some of the knurled bolts.  

So, it's pretty much clean/sand/paint on case parts. Not so on all the misc hardware. Bolts, knurled handles, etc. I'm wondering if that a time to experiment with nickel plating

 

I LOVE how simple those machines built and yet how many parts/labor/design went into them. No wonder they still make them. Can't come up with anything better?

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by katit

[katit]

Got couple more pieces to take apart, had to order special tools (spanner wrenches) which I didn't have. Decided to go ahead and give it new bearings/seals as well. Project becomes complete ovehaul, but I got time since I'm waiting on few parts from China anyway.

Final decision made to repaint big parts and nickel plate all the visible parts(knobs, pulleys, bolts). Everything inside (bolts, springs, etc) was covered in dirt/grease and survived rust, can be left alone.

Few parts like knife, belts, bearings, seal will be new. Gearbox bushings and gears look good.

 

[Scoutmom103]

Wow.  

[DanishMan]

Hi Katit

I took a skiving machine apart last week?

Which parts are you looking for?

Brgds

DanishMan

[DanishMan]

Regarding belt for the grinding stone, my suggestion is to use a  4 mm leather strap.

I ordered a new belt in the UK, but the shop sent a belt of wrong dimension.

Instead I got hold of a solid leather strap, and it works flawlessly on my other skiver

[katit]

I already ordered 95cm belt for the stone. It should be 1mm thick, didn’t see it yet.

the only parts I need is belt cover and small belt for feed roller

do you have right cover? I think your machine looks slightly different

[DanishMan]

No I Don’t have a belt cover, but different bolts, screws and springs.

I also have about 10 feed wheels and a lot of presser feet and some ejector plantes, if you need it.

Brgds

Soren

[katit]

I might be interested. Need couple random bolts. Will post pictures later. May take feed wheels and presser feets depending on price of course. I am in USA shipping might be expensive though

Also your skiver looks quite different not sure how many parts can be reused 

 

[DanishMan]

I bought a lot last year with a lot of feed wheels, ejectors, knife shaft, grinding stones, presser feet etc.

These things were not related to my ruined skiving machine.

Just send me a picture, if you can't find the stuff in the US. Then I will see, what I have.

[DanishMan]

The stuff I have is old. I will not charge a lot - but of course shipping will be expensive 

[katit]

Spent little more time. Removing main shaft was tricky, but now I know how it's done. I'm glad I'm doing it  - all bearings inside (needle and ball) in good shape but greaze became more like dry wax. Definitely need cleaning/repacking.

Separating pulley from shaft is a last piece to take apart, will have to make some kind of puller. Simple "knocking out" tecnique does not work.

 

[katit]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 11:51 PM, DanishMan said:

The stuff I have is old. I will not charge a lot - but of course shipping will be expensive 

Do you have this part? It's also displayed in previous post. My bad it's threaded and I tried to press it out, damaged one pin and bent it. If not - I will repair and make another pin. This is not critical part..

 

Ordered all new bearings. Some bearings which not easy to remove will be reused. But those are standard/cheap to replace. Pretty much all grease became "plasticky goo".

Machine finally apart, getting ready to clean/restore. I will try nickel plating on all small parts, will see how it goes.

 

[Nuttish]

I have that skiver. It works great.

IIRC from speaking with Sam or Dan at Campbell Randall, it's an Italian clone of a Fortuna, maybe FA. Most parts are interchangeable and still sold by Campbell Randall. The part numbers are often the same as well, just prepended with a Z.

Everything about restoring mine was pretty easy except diagnosing runout in the sharpening wheel spindle. That required correctly seating the bearings.

It also took a little work to minimize play in the drive shaft.

Your machine looks like it was exposed to water. The original deep groove bearings on the knife and drive shaft spindles were shielded but not sealed and the drive shaft also uses thrust bearings – I'd just assume they're all fouled and replace them. They're all inexpensive off the shelf sizes anyhow.

That's the original paint.

I used Eagle weldable urethane from McMaster Carr - round for the short and motor belts and flat infinite belt for the sharpening wheel. If you're missing the infinite belt, I'll measure mine and take a picture of the route for you. You don't need the Eagle kit; just put a butter knife in a vise, heat it up with a torch, and use it to melt your ends before you jam them together. These machines don't require much belt tension, so as long as the thing stays together you're fine.

Here's the manual. Fortuna manuals are also helpful for learning how to work on and operate the machine. Let me know and I'll post.

MFG-10A-15A.PDF

[katit]

@Nuttish

Thanks a lot for detailed response!

Quote

IIRC from speaking with Sam or Dan at Campbell Randall, it's an Italian clone of a Fortuna, maybe FA. Most parts are interchangeable and still sold by Campbell Randall. The part numbers are often the same as well, just prepended with a Z.

Interesting to know more history. If you look at badge on mine it says "made in Western Germany". And yes, all parts in machine stamped with Z. And it's "St Louis" company. I guess many different companies branded those machines? Will try calling them and see if they got parts needed.

Quote

Your machine looks like it was exposed to water. The original deep groove bearings on the knife and drive shaft spindles were shielded but not sealed and the drive shaft also uses thrust bearings – I'd just assume they're all fouled and replace them. They're all inexpensive off the shelf sizes anyhow

I would say it was exposed to weather/humidity. No direct rain or anything like that. Everything inside is OK, only top surface suffered. I am replacing all ball bearings except for knife shaft. Those needle bearings and thrust bearings were all embedded in "baked" grease. After soaking in kerosene everything cleaned up nicely and looks great.

Quote

That's the original paint

Thats interesting. I probably can do better job with a brush and closed eyes

Quote

I used Eagle weldable urethane from McMaster Carr - round for the short and motor belts and flat infinite belt for the sharpening wheel. If you're missing the infinite belt, I'll measure mine and take a picture of the route for you. You don't need the Eagle kit; just put a butter knife in a vise, heat it up with a torch, and use it to melt your ends before you jam them together. These machines don't require much belt tension, so as long as the thing stays together you're fine.

What size urethane did you use? I see they make tapered ones as well, maybe it will be better? I did have infinite belt it measured 97cm. I got green replacement from eBay - 95cm. I think 95cm is a correct size because belt that I had on was slightly loose and out of tensioner adjustment movement.

 

Thanks a lot for manual! Very helpful.

Question: Do you know what is this cover on a left for? I see most skivers sold today don't have it. I wonder what it does and what this black knob on left does.

 

[DanishMan]

I think I have the part, you mention. I will check it tomorrow, when I get home.

Brgds

DanishMan

[katit]

18 minutes ago, DanishMan said:

I think I have the part, you mention. I will check it tomorrow, when I get home.

Thanks! I also reached out to part supplier on this, they say it may have to be special ordered, and they will be letting me know today when/how much.

18 hours ago, Nuttish said:

I used Eagle weldable urethane from McMaster Carr - round for the short . You don't need the Eagle kit; just put a butter knife in a vise, heat it up with a torch, and use it to melt your ends before you jam them together. These machines don't require much belt tension, so as long as the thing stays together you're fine.

Ordered 10ft of 3L belting. Will see how strong it holds. Maybe it will work for sewing machines as well?

[DarkGoku]

I have a Cobra NP-4 skiving machine, and looks damn near identical. I'd give them a call over @ Leather Machine Company (https://www.leathermachineco.com/) ask for cobra Steve:) hope this helps

[Nuttish]

On 3/4/2019 at 9:54 AM, katit said:

@Nuttish

Thanks a lot for detailed response!

Interesting to know more history. If you look at badge on mine it says "made in Western Germany". And yes, all parts in machine stamped with Z. And it's "St Louis" company. I guess many different companies branded those machines? Will try calling them and see if they got parts needed.

I would say it was exposed to weather/humidity. No direct rain or anything like that. Everything inside is OK, only top surface suffered. I am replacing all ball bearings except for knife shaft. Those needle bearings and thrust bearings were all embedded in "baked" grease. After soaking in kerosene everything cleaned up nicely and looks great.

Thats interesting. I probably can do better job with a brush and closed eyes

What size urethane did you use? I see they make tapered ones as well, maybe it will be better? I did have infinite belt it measured 97cm. I got green replacement from eBay - 95cm. I think 95cm is a correct size because belt that I had on was slightly loose and out of tensioner adjustment movement.

 

Thanks a lot for manual! Very helpful.

Question: Do you know what is this cover on a left for? I see most skivers sold today don't have it. I wonder what it does and what this black knob on left does.

 

My machine is identical to yours, so I assume it was also made in West Germany. It doesn't appear to have ever had that badge, just a square one with a model number and no country of origin. Otherwise the same.

I wouldn't bother reaching out to Manufacturer's Supply. They still exist but don't seem keen on helping individuals with these ancient machines. Sam at Campbell Randalls knows everything about these things and has multiple options for reasonably priced parts.

The cover on the side is to extend the work surface and enclose the feed roll mechanism and bell knife. My machine had a scrap/dust collector system connected that consisted of a short section of duct connecting a hole underneath the edge of the bell knife to the enclosed cabinet in the left side of the table base. The cover would have also increased static pressure in the system and helped the fan suck scraps down the duct.

The black knob holds a diamond dressing rod. It turns maybe 30º inside a threaded sleeve that advances and retracts so you can carefully touch the dressing rod to the grinding wheel to square up the edge. 

I used 1/4" OD round weldable urethane belting for the drive pulleys and 1/2" weldable urethane for the infinite belt. Both from McMaster Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/59725K804 https://www.mcmaster.com/6075K12

Looks like you're missing the guide. IIRC it attaches to one of the holes behind and just to the left of the presser foot with an M6 thumb screw. In this picture I'm using an M6 sewing machine presser foot screw, but I replaced it with a bigger one with a plastic knob from Campbell Randall. You see that an OEM guide is just a slotted piece of steel that you can move in and out. You could make one out of scrap acrylic or aluminum with a drill and jewelers saw.

[Nuttish]

23 hours ago, katit said:

Thanks! I also reached out to part supplier on this, they say it may have to be special ordered, and they will be letting me know today when/how much.

Ordered 10ft of 3L belting. Will see how strong it holds. Maybe it will work for sewing machines as well?

If you've got a premade table you won't have any trouble finding a cheap purpose-made V belt. 

[katit]

11 minutes ago, Nuttish said:

 

I used 1/4" OD round weldable urethane belting for the drive pulleys and 1/2" weldable urethane for the infinite belt. Both from McMaster Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/59725K804 https://www.mcmaster.com/6075K12

Looks like you're missing the guide. IIRC it attaches to one of the holes behind and just to the left of the presser foot with an M6 thumb screw. In this picture I'm using an M6 sewing machine presser foot screw, but I replaced it with a bigger one with a plastic knob from Campbell Randall. You see that an OEM guide is just a slotted piece of steel that you can move in and out. You could make one out of scrap acrylic or aluminum with a drill and jewelers saw.

Yes, machines look identical with very slight differences. Obviously labels differ. I like yours better

I am awaiting response from Campbell Randall. Seems like "Manufacturers Supply" was like a franchise? Same font, same 2 words. But our skivers say "Saint Louis" and manual you attached above says "Campbell Randall"

So, left cover is a good thing. I got this diamong thingy, wasn't sure what it's for. So it's a keeper. I will not have separate table. I'm going to reuse my sewing machine table and just make adapter so I can "insert" skiver into the same opening and use sewing machine motor.

I do have guide rod and knob. They are just rusted and you can't really see on a picture. It's in Pile #2 on picture attached.

 

So, #1 is cleaned in kerosene and sprayed with WD40 (lesson learned, for some reason metal rusts very good after kerosene dries out). Those are all moving parts, all will be cleaned and lubed before assembly.

#2 is pile of bolts and small rusted parts which I'm going to nickel plate

#3 is bigger parts which will be sanded/acid cleaned and spray painted along with main casings.

 

Also, on your picture I quited - there is black "hook" showing. I don't have it. I have small knob which pulls on rod with spring. I guess it's the same part but looks different.

And question. What IS that bolt on very top of machine? It's right where top cas arm bends and it's got thick washer. I got regular bolt and you got allen head bolt. Seems to be just a bold going into case iron. There is also small pin sticking out behind. Do you know what is the purpose of it?

 

[jimi]

2 hours ago, katit said:

And question. What IS that bolt on very top of machine? It's right where top cas arm bends and it's got thick washer. I got regular bolt and you got allen head bolt. Seems to be just a bold going into case iron. There is also small pin sticking out behind. Do you know what is the purpose of it?

Nice restoration Katit, keep the pictures coming...The bolt on the arm is where a lamp would go. 

[katit]

Placed an order with Campbell-Randall on broken part. 3 weeks wait, not that bad. Right belt cover is not available, so will go without.

So I got 3 weeks to get everything else ready/painted/prepped.

[Nuttish]

On 3/5/2019 at 1:17 PM, katit said:

So, left cover is a good thing. I got this diamong thingy, wasn't sure what it's for. So it's a keeper. I will not have separate table. I'm going to reuse my sewing machine table and just make adapter so I can "insert" skiver into the same opening and use sewing machine motor.

#2 is pile of bolts and small rusted parts which I'm going to nickel plate

Also, on your picture I quited - there is black "hook" showing. I don't have it. I have small knob which pulls on rod with spring. I guess it's the same part but looks different.

And question. What IS that bolt on very top of machine? It's right where top cas arm bends and it's got thick washer. I got regular bolt and you got allen head bolt. Seems to be just a bold going into case iron. There is also small pin sticking out behind. Do you know what is the purpose of it?

The hook holds a spring attached to the bottom of the feed roll pivot. It allows you to adjust spring tension based on the thickness/stiffness of your material. The manuals describe how to do this. This particular machine has two additional adjustments on the feed roll mechanism that more or less match your description of knob/rod/spring, but they perform other functions than the purely vertical pressure adjustment the hook/spring controls. The one in the rear near the hook works in conjunction with it by setting the vertical upper limit of the feed roll mechanism's movement. You can also use it with an emery feed roll to lightly dress the inside edge of the knife as described in the Fortuna manual. I don't think it also has a spring, but it's a knob/rod. The other toward the front does have a spring and controls forward/rear tilt of the feed roll.

The machine won't work without the spring attached to the hook - the feed roll mechanism will just fall to the bottom of its range of motion, which may hit the knife.

As someone else said, the bolt on the top is probably for a lamp.

Not sure what "small pin" you're referring to. If it's the dark line just to the left of the presser foot adjustments, that's just a wide joint between sheets of drywall. The previous tenant in my workshop space didn't do a great job building it out.

[katit]

6 minutes ago, Nuttish said:

The hook holds a spring attached to the bottom of the feed roll pivot. It allows you to adjust spring tension based on the thickness/stiffness of your material. The manuals describe how to do this. This particular machine has two additional adjustments on the feed roll mechanism that more or less match your description of knob/rod/spring, but they perform other functions than the purely vertical pressure adjustment the hook/spring controls. The one in the rear near the hook works in conjunction with it by setting the vertical upper limit of the feed roll mechanism's movement. You can also use it with an emery feed roll to lightly dress the inside edge of the knife as described in the Fortuna manual. I don't think it also has a spring, but it's a knob/rod. The other toward the front does have a spring and controls forward/rear tilt of the feed roll.

The machine won't work without the spring attached to the hook - the feed roll mechanism will just fall to the bottom of its range of motion, which may hit the knife.

As someone else said, the bolt on the top is probably for a lamp.

Not sure what "small pin" you're referring to. If it's the dark line just to the left of the presser foot adjustments, that's just a wide joint between sheets of drywall. The previous tenant in my workshop space didn't do a great job building it out.

See picture attached of the area where you have "hook". Doesn't look like anything missing. I guess different construction?

"small pin" I'm talking about is about 1/2 tall 1/8 pin sticking out right behind bolt on top. Don't have it pictures. If that bolt is for lamp - maybe that pin is a guide pin for specialized lamp/accessory. That would be my explanation.