How do I sew some heavy webbing without a big sewing machine?

[Gymnast]

I have got a few projects, that include heavy webbing, and I like to use a heavyer thread, than my sewing machine can handle. What is the best way?

So I consider using:

1) Saddle stich. Then I use make the hole with an awl first. However I still think it can be hard to pull the needles through, and you may penetrade a tread with the needle.

2) Use a Speedy Stitcher or Meyer Sewing Awl. In this case I need to use needles with no leather point, because they can cut the webbing. I don't think you can buy needles for the Meyer Sewing Awl without a diamon point. And then you will have to grind the point to get rit of the sharp edges of the needle.

3) Use a jerk Needle (I have seen them with more names: hook needle, Union lock needle, Mckay needle). I have got a cheep one from china:

Cheep jerk needle ebay

I am not that satisfied. The handle is small. The needles have leather point and the sharp edge on the hook tends to catch webbing fibres when I pull the needle out.

I look forward for your help on what to do.

[bermudahwin]

Depending on the amount and accuracy, hand stitch with large rounded needles and a leather thumble or sailors palm

http://www.primitiveways.com/pt-thimble.html

If accuracy and speed are key, its hard to avoid heavy machines, for me anyhow.

H

[Gymnast]

Thanks for your reply hwinbermuda.

No accuracy and looks are not that important. But strength and resistance to wear is more important.

I just Wonder if hand stitch and pulling the needles with pliers may be slow. So in this case the speedy stitcher with a regular point needle may do the work faster?

[Matt S]

Between you and Harry I think you've got most of your manual, inexpensive options covered. 

Potentially a silly question but will the heavy thread be for looks or function? That is to say, will the thickest thread your machine can use produce a sufficiently strong product? If so you could apply a decorative, thicker thread by hand much easier than sewing through the thickness of the webbing. Just sew with your machine then see the heavy thread through/around the loop s on top of your seam.

What quantity of product do you want to make? Over here industrial sewing machine dealers will rent you machines per month if you can't justify buying a particular machine for a specific purpose.

Or, of course, you could farm it out to another manufacturer who has a heavier machine.

[Gymnast]

Thanks for your reply, Matt

I do have some D-rings attached to the webbing, that may concentrade forces on seams near them. When you add up many passes with thinner thread by a sewing machine, the layers of webbing gets harder, and I think it may be to much for my machine. The sewing machine is a somewhat modified household machine, and it will work resonable with V-92 and perhaps V-138. So I love to have a few areas covered with some heavier thread.

Yes, it may be an idea to go by some leather or unholstery shop to have it done. On the other hand there is not much to be done. It may in any case by hand be done in 3 hours.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Gymnast

[Gymnast]

Regarding the jerk needle - do they have more designs, that might be better for webbing? I mean no leather point and a somewhat rounded hook, so it will not catch the webbing when the hook is filled with the thread to be pulled.

[bermudahwin]

This may be slightly quicker than the jerk needle.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Professional-Speedy-Stitcher-Sewing-Awl-Tool-Kit-for-Sail-Canvas-Heavy-Repair-/352552871458

I used one to repair a sail years back, but replaced the blade with a reversed very large matress type needle, do the the hole out and the point within the handle.

May or may not work.

[Tejas]

Here is a link to an article on hand sewing webbing. As for strength of the union, several parallel stretch lines orthogonal to the edge of the webbing is apparently the strongest. Climbing webbing is sewed that way,

https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_52/features/Is-Hand-stitched-Nylon-Webbing-Strong-Enough_11663-1.html

 

[Dwight]

4 hours ago, Gymnast said:

I have got a few projects, that include heavy webbing, and I like to use a heavyer thread, than my sewing machine can handle. What is the best way?

So I consider using:

1) Saddle stich. Then I use make the hole with an awl first. However I still think it can be hard to pull the needles through, and you may penetrade a tread with the needle.

2) Use a Speedy Stitcher or Meyer Sewing Awl. In this case I need to use needles with no leather point, because they can cut the webbing. I don't think you can buy needles for the Meyer Sewing Awl without a diamon point. And then you will have to grind the point to get rit of the sharp edges of the needle.

3) Use a jerk Needle (I have seen them with more names: hook needle, Union lock needle, Mckay needle). I have got a cheep one from china:

Cheep jerk needle ebay

I am not that satisfied. The handle is small. The needles have leather point and the sharp edge on the hook tends to catch webbing fibres when I pull the needle out.

I look forward for your help on what to do.

I'm not sure what you are attempting to do, . . . but I've used a plastic $99.00 Brother sewing machine to sew multiple layers of heavy webbing to themselves for pulling straps, . . . and to canvas to make a makeshift carrier for a human body (long story, . . . totally legal and above board).

The secret is doing two things:  1)  put the pieces together first with contact cement, . . . and leave them together for 24 hours under some small weights (a board and a 5 lb sack of flour), . . . then  2)  sew it and use carpet thread purchased from Joann fabric.

The strength of that "union" defies common belief.  AND, . . . it can be done with your basic home style sewing machine.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Gymnast]

I think you are right, Hwinbermuda.

Actually I already did get the Meyers Sewing Awl some years ago - see here:

https://youtu.be/doSNwF86YvQ

It do actually Work well on webbing, but the supply of different needles to it is very limited (3 kinds of needles from Groz-Beckert.) They have a leather point, so you need to grind off the point edges of these needles when it is to be used on fabrik, so the fabric fibres are not cut. The special thing of these needles are, that the the grove continues into the shank part of the needle - se Photo below.

The speedy stitcher is able to use a large amount of common industrial sewing machine needles, with a round Ø 2mm shank. Perhaps I need one.

Tejas - I have not read your link yet. But I have seen articles, that argue, that these bars of sewing on climbing webbing or heavy duty webbing are not the best stich pattern. I will be back with more.

Dwight - when you use contact cement - then I assume it is for the canvas and not for the webbing.

[brmax]

I don't believe you want to use a cutting tip needle, rather a round point in my opinion.

This webbing is a thickness ? may I ask. In many Upholstery shops there is not a heavy machine stitcher ( i think I can easily say that on this site). So a standard 46, 69, 92 size thread is typical upholstery.

 I do understand a lot use to, and still do use 138 in outdoor products. This size many times in the " outdoor or marine products was because it lasted longer" and respectfully not actually needed for the strength. To address this the newer special threads are the king in marine and outdoor 24/7 weather.

I think adhesive could be a standard in bolstering strength using types, made for such environments your in.

 

good day

Floyd

[Gymnast]

32 minutes ago, brmax said:

I don't believe you want to use a cutting tip needle, rather a round point in my opinion.

This webbing is a thickness ? may I ask. In many Upholstery shops there is not a heavy machine stitcher ( i think I can easily say that on this site). So a standard 46, 69, 92 size thread is typical upholstery.

 I do understand a lot use to, and still do use 138 in outdoor products. This size many times in the " outdoor or marine products was because it lasted longer" and respectfully not actually needed for the strength. To address this the newer special threads are the king in marine and outdoor 24/7 weather.

I think adhesive could be a standard in bolstering strength using types, made for such environments your in.

 

good day

Floyd

I agree with you, Floyd. Yes I like the round point needle and dislike the cutting point. i agree, that a typical upholstery shop do not handle heavy threads. But a few do it - I know one making leather furniture, and he uses about V277 (tex 270). Do you have any references on using adhesives on webbing?

[Gymnast]

1 hour ago, Tejas said:

Here is a link to an article on hand sewing webbing. As for strength of the union, several parallel stretch lines orthogonal to the edge of the webbing is apparently the strongest. Climbing webbing is sewed that way,

https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_52/features/Is-Hand-stitched-Nylon-Webbing-Strong-Enough_11663-1.html

 

It is a very interesting link. I agree, that the key to understanding the strenght of these safety webbings and sewing on them is how the elongation of the materials will influence the stitching. With kernmantel ropes, the slipping between core and mantel is also a an important issue. I my case for the sewing it is not directly for high risk purposes and investigating the limits.

Do you know these Guys in the practical-sailor have made a report with more detailed results presented?

I will reference some other links with similar tests on sewing and knots:

This is a forum thread discussing hand stitching on ropes: http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/documenting-my-hand-sewn-eye-process.24769/

I also did find some tests reported here: http://electricant.net/projects/testing/testing.htm

Evans Starzinger did some test. Evans did publish several test on his (and his wifes) website, but this site is now active anymore. But the information is still to be found on the web.archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20160715154948/http://www.bethandevans.com:80/load.htm 

Some of the same test and some more discussions ot these tests to be found on this sailors forum thread:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/154025-ropeknotsplice-load-testing/&

He did also reference the study for the parachute webbing solutions - perhaps this picture is form this study:
 

 

 

[Gymnast]

I did the stitching now with a green polyester thread at about tex 370.  I tried saddle stitch with double thread and two needles. It makes 4 double thread to hold each stich. Then I tried using the sewing awl. Due to the 180 deg. turn in the lock stich the breaking strength is known to be reduced to 75 %. So it will be like 1.5 thread strenght each stitch. So the saddle stich this way will be 2.7 times stronger each stich.

But I had difficulty in using the saddle stich. I used an awl to make way for the needles. But it was also a problem to avoid penetrate the other thread in the hole. So I tried to keep a part of needle 2 in the hole when the first needle is pushed and pulled through. An expirienced stitcher should be able to make it faster than I am. Therefore I ended up in using the sewing awl for most of the stiching, because it was so much faster for me to Work with.

The D ring is supposed to handle a pull in all kinds of directions.

 

[Dwight]

Gymnast, . . . I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to do there, . . . but that conglomeration is certainly not safe for any kind of gymnastic activity more than perhaps attaching a rolled up exercise mat to it.

You need to seek some professional advice from people and companies who make the product you are trying to invent.  

The D ring alone being sawn in the back, . . . will come apart under a not very severe load.

Do not trust that rig to any human being, . . . trusting it for life or limb protection.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Gymnast]

Dwight - thanks for your reply.

I can assure you, that this application cannot be compared to climbing equipment or safety harness. And the gymnastics here have nothing to do with high flying gymnastics like on uneven bars. This sample is for experimental use and for verification pull tests. You do want equipment to last for some time and have the strengt with needed safety margins.

Anyway, I have seen professionel harness used for gymnastics, with high uneven loads on single seams, that easely will start to unravel. For such more safety related applications it is always evident, that you inspect the equipment on a regular basis.

[Tejas]

Here is a very recent article on sewing webbing.

https://www.sailrite.com/How-to-Sew-Webbing-Loops

 

[Gymnast]

1 hour ago, Tejas said:

Here is a very recent article on sewing webbing.

https://www.sailrite.com/How-to-Sew-Webbing-Loops

 

Thanks for report from Sailrite. I do not think, that Sailrite did tests on the recommended patterns from the previous reports on the subject. The Sailrite diamond and W patterns are not the same, because Sailrite added some stitching accross the webbing at each end. I think these added parts actually destoyes the strength, because they will take up much more force than will happen in a pure diamond og W pattern.

[Gymnast]

18 hours ago, Tejas said:

Here is a very recent article on sewing webbing.

https://www.sailrite.com/How-to-Sew-Webbing-Loops

 

When I look at the video, it seems to me, that the tests are made on sewn eyes in webbing. It is actually much different than end to end connections of webbing, which are normally used in slings for climbing or lifting applications. Do you see the same as me?

However, you will normally require some company with a good insurance policy to make such slings.