Best Sewing Machines- New vs Used/Antique

[jrprottas]

8 hours ago, bikermutt07 said:

The prison guy was from Craigslist, the Vegas deal was found here, and the consew was found thru a friend who deals a lot with the service guy at a local sewing shop.

Just keep an eye out. It might not pop up for 6 months, but eventually a deal will show up.

 

 

Here is just an observation I've made......

 In the general market there isn't a ton of interest in leather tools. So, family members of deceased leather workers usually have no idea what something could be worth. And then, when they look on line they want near retail pricing. The problem with that is they want to sell it all at once. They don't realize that someone interested in all that stuff already has most of it already and isn't really interested in an entire collection.

So, resale value is low on large lots owned by uninterested parties. I see it all the time here. 

This creates a buyer's market. I have heard that the best finds on industrial machines are when grandpa passed away and someone wants to sell his "old sewing machine". When the buyer shows up he finds some amazing deal on an old workhorse for next to nothing. 

I haven't experienced that one, but I've heard a few similar stories to it.

End of non requested babbling.....

Sounds like deals like these would show- up in the La Quinta/Palm Springs area as its full of retirees. Just need to narrow down what I'm looking for in making small backpacks and slingbags with multiple layers of 6oz leather. Thanks for your unsolicited overview of used equipment!  Jeff in Indio

[bikermutt07]

6 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Sounds like deals like these would show- up in the La Quinta/Palm Springs area as its full of retirees. Just need to narrow down what I'm looking for in making small backpacks and slingbags with multiple layers of 6oz leather. Thanks for your unsolicited overview of used equipment!  Jeff in Indio

Is that in Florida? You could clean up in the world of Shopsmiths. They have lots available down there. All them old guys have one, and they usually have all the accessories.

https://www.shopsmith.com/

[jrprottas]

Wanting some recommendations in these categories:

I'm new to leatherworking wanting a machine to do heavy duty (10+oz) straight stitches for backpacks.

NEW:. Are there other top contenders beyond Adler, Cobra, Cowboy, Techsew, Sailrite, Juki?  Are decent new machines necessarily in the $2500-5000 range? Are there industrial machines that dont require daily oiling?

USED/ANTIQUE:  It seems very difficult to find used Adlers, Cobras or Cowboys. Are there some "sleepers" in the used market worth searching out that may be more available?  Singers for one seem quite abundant: are there series 201, 301, etc to look for for my purpose. Any models to stay away from? Are there older classics worth seeking out?

Edited July 29, 2019 by jrprottas

[Wizcrafts]

Read this sticky article for good information and to eliminate unworthy machines. It defines the type of machine you need to sew serious leather projects.

You will soon learn that there is no single machine that sews thin and thick equally well. If most of your work ranges from 10-12 ounces to 32 ounces, a CB3200 will suffice. That is its best range. You can sew with bonded thread sizes 138 through 346 on that machine. Consult this needle and thread chart to gain insight into how thread sizes equate to actual diameters.

As for the question about other brands than our advertisers, there are several good brands out there. The Artisan Toro machines are very good. There are needle and awl harness stitchers that cost an arm and a leg but lay down a stitch to match hand stitching. Campbell-Randall and Union Lockstitch machines are the best of the class for needle and awl harness machines.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, jrprottas said:

Singers for one seem quite abundant: are there series 201, 301, etc to look for for my purpose

No. Those are domestic cloth sewing machines with bottom feed and very light duty take-up components. They max out with #69 bonded thread which is just good enough to hold wallet interiors together.

[Matt S]

8 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Are there other top contenders beyond Adler, Cobra, Cowboy, Techsew, Sailrite, Juki? 

I've never seen one in the flesh (they're not generally available over here) but I would hesitate to call anything Sailrite a top leather machine. I'm sure they're fine for relatively heavy fabrics though. I should also mention that Cowboy, Cobra and Techsew are brands of clone and derivative machines out of China. I'm not knocking them on that, but they're generally considered to be lower quality than Juki, Adler, Seiko etc. In a factory setting (8+ hours a day, full-speed) they wear and break a lot faster. For hobbyists and small-production facilities (as typifies the majority of members on this forum) they are more than adequate and represent a better value-for-money than a new Adler, Seiko or Juki at 2-3 times the same price for a comparable setup.
 

Quote

Are decent new machines necessarily in the $2500-5000 range?

In a word:, yes. In more words: yes, unless you're lucky enough to find a used machine being sold below its value and willing to spend sweat equity acquiring, cleaning, servicing and adjusting it to meet your needs. Plus $ on parts and professional help for the things you can't do. BTW $5K isn't the top end, by a long margin...
 

Quote

Are there industrial machines that dont require daily oiling?

No. It's literally a minute to do, which you roll into the daily or twice-daily clean, check and needle replacement that you will need to do anyway. If you're not running the machine full-bore for 8 hours a day you can often get away with not oiling daily, but I don't think it's a good habit to be in.

Quote

It seems very difficult to find used Adlers, Cobras or Cowboys. Are there some "sleepers" in the used market worth searching out that may be more available?  Singers for one seem quite abundant: are there series 201, 301, etc to look for for my purpose. Any models to stay away from? Are there older classics worth seeking out?

Wiz has already pointed out that domestic machines are entirely unsuited to your purposes. Most of the Singers you're seeing are very likely domestics, irrespective of how they're being advertised. Singer stopped making industrial machines in the 1960s, though they were selling rebadged industrial Seikos and Adlers until some point in the 80s I think. 50+ year old industrial machines can be fun to play with but often lack features that are absolutely standard these days like reverse, safety clutches, compound feed, safety guards, needle positioner compatibility, semi-auto oilers, large bobbins. There are also often issues with availability of parts, bobbins and needles; wear; rust; parts cannibalisation; outright abuse.

If a seller describes something as "semi-industrial" they're either being misleading or have been mislead. Less generous expressions of the same sentiment are available and no less pertinent.

I don't know about your side of the pond but our vestigial manufacturing sector spits out used Adlers and Seikos on a fairly frequent basis. A lot of these models are still in production but it's important to remember that these machines have had a hard life and there's a reason why factories go through the expense and disruption of replacing their machines. I've found the best recipe for success is to find a factory that's closing down production lines rather than replacing shagged-out machines but there's still no free lunches. If I were to charge myself for the time I've spent fannying about with machines instead of actually manufacturing stuff on them I'd probably find that I would have been better off buying new machines and be done with it. But then, I'm under-capitalised and like playing about with machinery so... 

In the US you have access to some excellent dealers, who sell great VFM machines that they stand behind. The cost is the cost, be grateful that you're not over here, where at best you'll find low-to-mid-level machines for sale at the same or higher number of £ that you guys would pay in $. Plus 20% tax.

[kgg]

9 hours ago, jrprottas said:

Are decent new machines necessarily in the $2500-5000 range?

No, I think a decent new walking foot machine like the Juki DU-1181n ($1200) or one of the equivalent clone machines should be able to handle what you would like to do. A new portable walking foot sewing machine ($500 -$1500) like those of Reliable, Techsew and Sailrite to name a few would probably do for a low volume need.

If you want to move up to the $1800 range for a compound feed machine you would be looking at something similar to the Juki 1541S or for less money you could go with one of the equivalent clone machine.

kgg

[jrprottas]

On 7/29/2019 at 5:42 AM, Matt S said:

I should also mention that Cowboy, Cobra and Techsew are brands of clone and derivative machines out of China. I'm not knocking them on that, but they're generally considered to be lower quality than Juki, Adler, Seiko etc.

  I had thought these brands (CB, Cobra, Techsew, Consew) were the best of the best.  Can you provide specific cylinder arm models of Juki, Adler, Seiko, etc for straight stitch sewing for 1/2"+ layered leather sewing?  If really 2 to 3 times more expensive these may not be in my future, but would appreciate learning about them.

[jrprottas]

On 7/28/2019 at 9:33 PM, Wizcrafts said:

You can sew with bonded thread sizes 138 through 346 on that machine. Consult this needle and thread chart to gain insight

As a newbie I had just figured out that Maine poly thread sizes .035 to .045 with John James Harness needles sizes Size 01 and  Size 00 (also known as 2/0) would pair nicely for my turned backpacks. I'm totally lost on your thread/needle chart as to how to find equivalent pairings? How does the lockstitch compare to a traditional saddlestitch in terms of strength?

[kgg]

32 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

Maine poly thread sizes .035 to .045 with John James Harness needles sizes Size 01 and  Size 00 (also known as 2/0) would pair nicely for my turned backpacks. I'm totally lost on your thread/needle chart as to how to find equivalent pairings

 

Your Maine Thread Company measures it's thread diameter in inches. So a .035 inch diameter waxed poly thread would be larger then the V554 thread listed in the Toledo chart with a breaking strength of 83 lbs. Need some serious iron to sew V554 thread. From the info I have, your .035" thread is approximately .889 mm and for poly it would have about 28 kg (approximately 61 lbs.) breaking strength. So working backwards you would need to use V415 having a breaking strength of 72 lbs. Once again some serious heavy iron.

So for a start it really comes down to what breaking strength your thread and seam strength needs to be so your stuff functions properly. What strength do you really need for your seams which will then determine the thread size and from that you can determine what type of sewing machine is capable of handling that size of thread and do the job. Once you figure that out then you can select the best class of machine in your dollar range. There are other factors that need to be taken into account besides just thread strength such as UV resistance, chemical resistance, abrasion resistance and seam elasticity to name a few.

kgg

 

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, jrprottas said:

I'm totally lost on your thread/needle chart as to how to find equivalent pairings? How does the lockstitch compare to a traditional saddlestitch in terms of strength?

The needle - thread pairings are shown in the first and second columns on the left. For example, needle size 25/200 pairs best with #277 (T270) bonded nylon or bonded polyester, or 4 cord linen thread (~ .0231 inches, or .586mm). The .040 inch thread you mentioned is 1mm diameter and would require a #30 needle. It is bigger than #554 bonded thread. You would need a Union Lockstitch, or Campbell-Randall Lockstitch, or a sole stitcher to sew this size thread.

The strength of lockstitch thread is that of the smallest thread if the bobbin is smaller than the top. Otherwise, it is as shown in the needle and thread chart under the "Break Strength" column. Thus, if you sew something with #277 bonded nylon thread, top and bottom, the breaking strength of each stitch would be 45 pounds lateral pull. A force exceeding that would cause a stitch to let go.

I am not sure about the strength of hand sewn saddle stitches. It might be as strong as either thread, or both doubled up. It is outside of my purview. All I know is that is takes much longer to hand sew than machine sew. Most customers prefer to pay less for any given item than more, so we machine sew unless asked and paid to hand sew or do over the edge lacing.

[Matt S]

9 hours ago, jrprottas said:

  I had thought these brands (CB, Cobra, Techsew, Consew) were the best of the best.  Can you provide specific cylinder arm models of Juki, Adler, Seiko, etc for straight stitch sewing for 1/2"+ layered leather sewing?  If really 2 to 3 times more expensive these may not be in my future, but would appreciate learning about them.

Those brands are popular because they give you Juki 441-like machines at a fraction the price of a real one. I'm sure they're good (we don't get many this side of the pond) and many businesses seem happy to give them house room.

Not an exhaustive list, but the 1/2"+ of thickness would really limit your choices. Juki 441, Adler 969 and Seiko CH-8 would be suitable. Expect to pay somewhere between $6-10K depending on options.

[jrprottas]

You guys are awesome. I've learned so much from your stickies and posts. 

I'm new to leather machines. Expect to be a hobbyist more than a retailer and will not use the machine daily.

I think I'm looking for:

walking foot - triple feed

cylinder arm with optional table

#25/#207 capable

M bobbin

3/8 to 1/2" vegtan penetration

Would like to have a machine weighing far less than 200 pounds with the above specs.

Am I dreaming?

 

 

[jrprottas]

Thread/needle sizes for industrial machines are theoretical at this point, as I've learned theres not a direct correlation between saddlestitch needles/threads. What would you recommend for small backpacks? Is #207/#25 a safe bet?

[Wizcrafts]

I believe the machine that best matches your specs, at the lowest out the door cost, is the Cowboy CB3200. The only difference is that it uses a barrel shaped bobbin that holds a lot more thread than an M or U bobbin. They have authorized dealers in Ohio and Texas.

There are a lot of members who have this machine because it can sew with heavy thread into 1/2 inch of leather.

[bland]

I own a couple of machines now and I have been quite happy with both.  A 441 clone Cobra class 4 and a Juki 1508 NH.  I had no experience with leather sewing machines when I got the Cobra and had a few struggles the learning curve was quite steep.  I thought I could just make adjustments and go from heavy to light materials quickly and easily.  Not so much the case.  Thankfully for this forum and a good dealer with great customer service.  I learned quickly that one machine does not do it all easily.   I can do fine tuning but no radical changes anymore for me.  The class 4 is set up for heavy work only now.  I bought the Juki from a local sewing shop where I knew a little more of what I was looking for now that I had my heavy machine.  I opted for a flatbed machine that would still sew some significant veg tan leather as well as some softer chap and upholstery leather when required. 

My advice is if you don't have a lot of experience working on or with industrial sewing machines it is worth getting one from a reputable dealer who will give great customer support and some expert advice.  Who will know what needle size and thread size you will need.   Ask a lot of questions, based on the kind of projects you will be doing (small backpacks, etc.), how much you will be using it,  what features you want,  shop space requirements and etc.   You will probably have to pay $1500 to $5000 depending on your requirements.   I believe your profile says you in California you might give Leather Machine Co a call and maybe visit with them as they are in Ontario, CA they have a variety of machines and if you are close by you may be able to save shipping costs.  There are probably other industrial sewing machine shops in California as well that would be happy to help you.  

P.S.  Local dealers might even have machines you can try out to see what you like best.  

Edited August 2, 2019 by bland
add P.S.

[jrprottas]

Wiz. You're right  the Cowboy 3200 seems to meet my needs best and your info hasnt steered me wrong yet. Are you familiar with the CB 3200 HC  portable. It would save me a few dollars upfront,  and address the weight issue. It would seem it wouldnt preclude getting the standing pro-stand and servo down the line....on the surface no downside.   What do you think of this idea? Thanks Jeff

 

[Wizcrafts]

24 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

Are you familiar with the CB 3200 HC  portable.

Yes, but not from actual experience. However, I have Barney handles on both patchers and frequently hand wheel my CB4500 and Singer 42-5 around corners.

[thunter9]

i have a cb 4500 the complete package would  like to sell . even have the foam the head was shipped in 

do to my health 

[Matt S]

@jrprottas bear in mind that those "portable" setups are still quite heavy. The head alone on a 3200 must be over 100lb.

[jrprottas]

6 hours ago, Matt S said:

@jrprottas bear in mind that those "portable" setups are still quite heavy. The head alone on a 3200 must be over 100lb.

thank you.  Its not just the weight...also the space it takes up and to a lesser extent, the noise. At 70, I can still wrestle around 100 pounds myself.  Also the entry level price that doesnt preclude adding things in the future as I get a better sense of this new hobby. Sure seems to be a more flexible choice than a Tippman or Outlaw.

9 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Yes, but not from actual experience. However, I have Barney handles on both patchers and frequently hand wheel my CB4500 and Singer 42-5 around corners.

what are barney handles? Would they make any machine hand-operable?

[jrprottas]

Wiz mentioned the Toro Artisan in one of his stickies and I finally studied the website. They're located in ca which is great. 

Anyone with experience with the 3200 they offer?  They claim its proficient with thinner leathers also. For example wallets.

[Wizcrafts]

Since they sell direct, it is best to call or email them about the minimum thickness it can sew

35 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

what are barney handles? Would they make any machine hand-operable?

They are little wooden handles that screw loosely onto sewing machine handwheels (after drilling and tapping a hole) that let you crank the wheel with a handle instead of your hand on top of the handwheel itself. They used to be available for steering wheels and Barney Rubble had one on his car. They are usually found on the handwheels on shoe patcher machines.

[SolarLeatherMachines]

On 8/3/2019 at 3:07 AM, Matt S said:

@jrprottas bear in mind that those "portable" setups are still quite heavy. The head alone on a 3200 must be over 100lb.

Our 3200 HC weighs 105 lbs.   As Wiz says, it's a Barney handle, only made of stainless steel.  I looked a long time before I found a handle that was really nice, and really comfortable.  If I was going to do this, I was going to do it RIGHT.    You can attach them to any wheel that you can drill and tap, but most of the lightweight machines have hand wheels that are basically sheet metal, and not suitable for the heavy stainless steel handles.   Might be ok for the small wooden handles Wiz is talking about.  

[jrprottas]

On 8/3/2019 at 7:27 AM, jrprottas said:

Wiz mentioned the Toro Artisan in one of his stickies and I finally studied the website. They're located in ca which is great. 

Anyone with experience with the 3200 they offer?  They claim its proficient with thinner leathers also. For example wallets.

Click to Enlarge

HERES WHAT THE ARTISAN WEBSITE CLAIMS. Seems to cover a broader range of thin to thick applications. Again, anyone have experience with the TORO ARTISAN 3200?

Heavy Dutyartisan® TORO-3200 Stitchers with a 12 ¹⁄₂" working area cylinder bed are known as Compound Needle Feed, Walking Foot (Unison Feed) Lockstitch Sewing Machine and include a very large size Bobbin and Oscillating Shuttle Hook system designed to stitch from as light as 2 to 3 sheets of paper, up to as heavy as ⁹⁄₁₀ inch or 24.1 mm thick. Some features of theartisan® TORO-3200 include a lever type stitch regulator with Reverse feed and a built-in bobbin winder mechanism. The machines stitch using threads manufactured using bonded twisted Nylon or Poly Threads from light weight sizes such as z-69 (tex 70) up to as heavy as size z-415 (tex 410) industrial threads. We recommend genuine SCHMETZ brand Needles from diameters as light as 794 NM110, (#18) up to NM250 (#27) including leather point needles 794 S #21 to #26 and 794 D #23 to #25.artisan® is the direct distributor of Schmetz brand, German manufactured highest quality needles and carries all of the various sizes.