birch tar [WTS] Birch Tar, Oil, and Pitch

[Otzi]

That is the oil, not tar which usually contains about 20% water and some other impurities that get cooked off when making it into tar. Even then the price is really cheap for 10 oz and I would be very surprised if it was just oil. I am ordering a bottle and will check it out as well as cook it down into tar to see just how much it gives back. Final amount and how it cooks down will tell if it is the real deal, I will video it and let you guys know here once done.

Edit: Ordered, be here between sep 13 and 26.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Otzi

[mikesc]

The only "absolute proof" would  be chromatogram ( chromatography* ) analysis ( or similar ) , of the "sample" compared against a "known reference sample"..Laboratory supply house dealing in Pharmaceutical Grade  would be a "reference sample", some analysis units may even have the reference figure already in their database for comparison.With respect, your product is not a "reference sample" and unless you are an analytical organic chemist, your "conclusions" would be of no more import than those of any one else reading or posting in the thread.

 

You may have recently discovered traditional Russian leather techniques, but many of us ( especially the Russian leather workers who frequent this site, and there are some highly skilled ones ) were already aware of them for very many years previously, including their history, usages, procedures, and the leather and leather treatment products that they made...and still make. They have proven reputations as makers of traditional products for many years and in some cases many generations to preserve..You have just begun.

 

Good luck with your sales..I might suggest that if you want people to be able to assess / review the quality of what you are making, ( and subsequently recommend the product to others ) that you offer some free samples, rather than offer discounts off what are apparently much more expensive products, than what is currently on the market . A seller's recommendation that their product is "high quality", based upon what they have recently learned ( but which very many people were already aware of and have been producing for hundreds of years ) is not really unbiased..

I'm certainly not looking for samples for myself, if I want Birch tar, I can get it already..and even if, as you posit , the Birch tar oil from Russia was 20% oil, reduction of the oil content would still leave a 500ml bottle ( minus 20% oil ) down to 400ml Bottle costing only $25.00 plus shipping ( and a little for the energy required to "slow cook" it in a "bain marie"..As YinTx pointed out further up, 500ml from you, would cost $350.00 .. but you assure us that yours is better, and as JLS would  say, "you have a video"  ..Yours is ( per ml ) around 60% of the retail price of Chanel number 5.. ( Chanel is just over $500.00 for 500ml, at the current exchange rate of USD to Euros ).. Good luck..

Ps..If you are selling this, you may require an MSDS sheet or Similar ( and an analysis by an independent laboratory so as to be able to ship it with the post office or any carriers ), that may vary with your jurisdiction and that of your customers..IIRC Canada and the USA have legislation which might apply..Europe certainly does, and do not forget product and public liability insurance etc..anyone swallows the stuff, sticks it in their eyes, whatever, you do not want to get sued..If you were merely selling someone else's product it is very much less of a risk ( but a risk nevertheless ) when you are manufacturing and selling your own, it can be a regulatory paperwork nightmare, even if nothing goes wrong..

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatography

Pps..Your per ml price is also a lot more expensive than any of the Whiskey or Whisky that I have here, and I have some very good single malts..One of them even comes with a deed to a sq foot of a Scottish Island ( where the distillery is ) with every bottle. 'Nother 10 years  and I'll own enough sq feet, to build a small cottage on, if they'd give planning permission, and if not ( highly likely, it would ruin the view ) certainly enough to have my own pic-nic spot. :)

Edited August 22, 2019 by mikesc
Correction Chanel#5 is cheaper than I remembered

[Otzi]

I am not looking to do lab results lol. But having a look at it and cooking it down into tar will tell conclusively if it is what it claims to be, so I will see when that time comes.

I did not assure you mine is better, but I have done it enough to have serious doubts as to how that amount could be offered at that price. As an example 3 lbs of birch on average yields 2.5 to 3 ounces on a perfect batch of oil, that oil then cooks down to about 2 ounces of oil. There are many variables that affect the amounts but that is pretty close overall.

Now head out and collect 3 lbs of Birch bark, process, and distill it into oil. I see no reasonable way you can sell that amount of work at that price, even on a large commercial setup.

Comparing Birch tar to whiskey or perfume is apples and oranges.

[chrisash]

If you google russian birch you find 

Russian Birch plywood is uniquely manufactured with multiple ply's of Birch veneer, used uniformly, throughout the panel. Each layer of birch veneer is peeled at 1.3mm or 1.5mm thickness giving the panel a multi-ply edge that is both aesthetically attractive and offers unmatched strength and stability.

So I would expect there are tons of bark cleared off the trees before use and therefore available for mass production

I also believe its the most populated tree in Russia

[mikesc]

Google search for

annual production quantity Russian birch ply

Quote

Jun 26, 2019 · Global birch plywood consumption is expected to grow from the current 4.5 million m³ to nearly 6 million m³ by 2030. Most of this demand is expected to be satisfied by Russian plywood. Russian birch plywood production is concentrated in the European part of Russia in connection to the so called “birch belt”.

I think that the "Russian commercial set up" is more than "large", they can certainly be able to sell what is an incidental waste by product of Birch plywood production very cheaply,..they could give it away if they felt so inclined.

For example..The SVEZA Group's annual production is 102 million m2 (1.3 million m3)....They don't go gathering 3lbs of Birch bark, they go gathering a few thousand tons per time as as side effect of gathering a few hundred thousand tons of Birch trees at a time, multiple times per year..

 

Making Birch Tar, even at artisanal levels in small quantities isn't rocket surgery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_tar

Edited August 22, 2019 by mikesc

[Otzi]

I agree on a big scale like mentioned they can do it cheaper then a little guy like me, but I don't think they can do it that cheap. I have seen Birch debarked by machine and it removes inner bark as well as outer, the inner is no good to distill so needs to be separated, and depending on time of year inner and outer can be stuck together pretty hard. That is an additional cost over regular debarking, then you have the distill process which would not be cheap, though probably fueled by scrap wood and maybe even that inner bark.

Either way it is interesting and once this bottle shows up I get to either eat my foot and rethink things, or have confirmation of my suspicions, can't wait until it gets here to see.

[mikesc]

You cold always buy it in bulk from Russia and then "reduce" it and sell it on, not as lucrative, but ( depending on how much you pay for shipping from Canada ), could still be a viable business. Just have to pitch it right to the Hipster market "Condition and waterproof your boots the way your Great Grandpa, and his Great Grandpa etc did*" you may even be able to buy it in Canada in 200 litre barrels.

*Yes, I confess , I used to work in the advertising business.

Come to think of it, if the shipping costs to send stuff to customers were not so high in France, ( and small glass bottles or metal containers are not cheap here either even orders of 1000 units or more ) I'd be tempted to add it as a new product line myself, plenty ( far too many in fact, one is too many ) of Hipsters in France**, seems a shame not to be taking more of their foolish Hipster money.

 

** There are at least 20 or so permanent residents,here in this small town ( 3k population when the tourists are here in summer ) ..Paris is "scootering"*** with them.

***verb or possibly adverb ( depends on where you learned your English apparently ) which describes a number of Hipsters in motion or in a group..Noun is a "scooter" of Hipsters..like "flock"

Edited August 22, 2019 by mikesc

[Otzi]

The main reason I started this was to utilize the entire tree rather then just firing it all in the woodstove which I see as a big waste of a resource. Here Birch is the main source of firewood so a lot is cut and a lot is wasted unfortunately. So not really interested in reselling a product from Russia and pitching to hipsters. I would rather at that point focus on the really rare version of the oil that I have yet to see anybody mention much less sell, just talked about in some very old somewhat obscure documents. Also in perfecting it in its harder states as a glue and in traditional and period specific crafting.

Just have to wait and see how this bottle tests out.

[mikesc]

I built my own mass storage heater / fireplace*, have a friend who is a tree surgeon, in exchange for building him a website, ( which I offered to do anyway ) I get all the free wood I want ( as sometimes 6 metre by 1metre logs ) I just have to chainsaw it smaller, split and store it to dry, some is used for sculpture, or lumber, the rest I burn, all of it, leaves are composted..There is no waste .Grew up ( half the time ) on the family small farm in Eire, small farmers don't waste..not even a small piece of string.

 

Here they don't burn Birch ( which is a shame because it burns well, if a bit tarry if you don't get the fire hot enough, and if you can't build a chimney that draws properly ), they only burn Oak, Beech, and Ironwood..the rest ( they think ) "doesn't burn well"..I've given up trying to explain to them how to build mass heaters, and proper chimneys..I just let folks give me the wood that they think doesn't burn well.

 

Are you sure that there is no one in Canada producing large amounts of Birch Tar that you could buy? Making it yourself is very laudable, but despite being simple, it is time consuming on a small scale.

* ( around 85 to 90% efficient, maybe more, certainly better , more efficient than the very expensive ones that I've see  supposed "specialist" fireplace builders here sell for many thousands of Euros, one of my neighbours bought one of them, burns 4 times as much wood as I do, to get the same temp, in the about the same volumetric space..cost him $16.000.oo Euros ! )

Btw..You might be interested in this ( sort of tangential to what you are doing, but dates back to the time when the Russian Court smelled so much of their leather , which was Birch Bark treated ) that a very well known UK business grew out of it..

https://www.imperialleather.co.uk/our-story

The website has that irritating light brown on beige thing going on with the text in places ( some web designers are beyond hope ) ..but it does give you  some more background that you may not have known around your product's history.

Edited August 22, 2019 by mikesc

[Otzi]

Quote

I built my own mass storage heater / fireplace*, have a friend who is a tree surgeon, in exchange for building him a website, ( which I offered to do anyway ) I get all the free wood I want ( as sometimes 6 metre by 1metre logs  ) I just have to chainsaw it smaller, split and store it to dry, some is used for sculpture, or lumber, the rest I burn, all of it, leaves are composted..There is no waste  .Grew up ( half the time ) on the family small farm in Eire, small farmers don't waste..not even a small piece of string.

The way it should be, it's s a shame more people do not make full use as you do. Indeed farmers are not only very hard working but extremely efficient and minimal waste, good stuff. That is some massive lumber, you are very lucky, where I am (Quebec) they cut most of the timber back in the 60s and 70s so we have very little for big trees like that. Cool that you do web design, I actually was in a similar industry for the past 8 years. Started out freelance Linux admin and consulting for hosting companies before finally opening and running my own hosting company for 4 years. I sold that 6 months ago. I am not all that good with web design but if you need a rock solid site with load balancing and automatic failovers I can make that happen

 

12 hours ago, mikesc said:

Here they don't burn Birch ( which is a shame because it burns well, if a bit tarry if you don't get the fire hot enough, and if you can't build a chimney that draws properly ), they only burn Oak, Beech, and Ironwood..the rest ( they think ) "doesn't burn well"..I've given up trying to explain to them how to build mass heaters, and proper chimneys..I just let folks give me the wood that they think doesn't burn well. 

 

Happy to hear somebody else understands how the wood burning process works, I have argued with people previously about Birch and them saying it burns "dirty", very difficult to make them understand! We are too far North here for Maple but I have traded for it a few times and that is really am amazing wood to burn. Burns with very little flame, very clean, long, and extremely hot. Sounds to me like they are spoiled with their Oak, Beech, and Ironwood.. lol.

 

12 hours ago, mikesc said:

Are you sure that there is no one in Canada producing large amounts of Birch Tar that you could buy? Making it yourself is very laudable, but despite being simple, it is time consuming on a small scale.

I have looked pretty extensively for USA and Canada and did not find any. There are a few Canadian companies putting substantial money into extracting from Birch bark and the wood but they are looking to extract past the oil / tar into individual compounds like triterpenes, acids, etc. I have found just 2 people on Etsy and now this Russian company that is selling (Farmacs). Doing some digging they seem to sell a large amount of oil for livestock treatments which is a 10-15% tar mix for treatments of hoofs, skin issues etc. No idea if that is what I bought :D

12 hours ago, mikesc said:

Btw..You might be interested in this ( sort of tangential to what you are doing, but dates back to the time when the Russian Court smelled so much of their leather , which was Birch Bark treated ) that a very well known UK business grew out of it..

https://www.imperialleather.co.uk/our-story

The website has that irritating light brown on beige thing going on with the text in places ( some web designers are beyond hope ) ..but it does give you  some more background that you may not have known around your product's history.

That was an interesting timeline to read, thanks for sharing it

 

Random thing I just found out about Birch tar tonight. This was not through anything I found online, just my own little weird test :D We have a bunch of wild cats that my wife has taken the habit of giving "treats" which I try to lightly discourage. I know Birch tar repels many insects and pests so I got to wondering if it would have any effect for animals. I set one of my freshly treated work boots 4-5 feet away from the cats "treat" dish and watched as cat after cat came, sniffed, walked around in circles and then left without touching the food.

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Otzi