Bag Construction-Puckers, Folds, Darts

[jrprottas]

Here are photos of a couple of my favorite maker's messenger bags, used as examples of my bag construction questions.

Newbie who has so far only made prototypes out of thin pleather. I'm still trying to figure out my design for a "turned" construction, 6 oz  vegtan, small (8"w x 14" tall) sling bag.

Can you see how these were constructed from these pics? I see a front and back, with a single side piece???  Perhaps a second side piece that only creeps up from the bottom 6" creating the side pocket with the banded, riveted edge and reinforcing the bottom.

My main question, since I have no actual experience:  These bags appear to have the same design but in the first photo it was necessary to have the puckered folds; and in the last photo it was unnecessary. WHY??? 

What design principle would eliminate the need for puckers, folds and/or darts?

Does the first design have a larger, rounded corner. Would that explain the need for the folds?  How would one "anchor" the folds so that they look the same on both sides?

Stuck, Jeff

 

[blue duck]

Jeff without actually seeing it or talking with the maker, my guess it is just designers choice. The top bag appears to have a rounder bottom corners, the bottom much more square. But that does not affect the use of the fold/dart. The darts/folds are created by making the leather wider along the bottom of the front piece and tucking it in. Again just a design choice, not necessary. I would bet the back piece of the top bag does not have those folds.  If you don't want that look, just create your pattern as a flat piece and then measure your gusset around that. If you wanted the dart/fold you would create the dart to take up that excess material and then you would measure for the gusset. I believe the gusset is three pieces, perhaps more without seeing the bottom. It doesn't take nearly as big a piece of leather that way. If you want to create that fold look I would skive down the thickness at the edge, so the leather will lay down better. To make them even you need to measure out the same distance from each edge to start the fold and take up the same amount of material on both folds. Tack or glue it down and then sew.

[jrprottas]

5 hours ago, blue duck said:

Jeff without actually seeing it or talking with the maker, my guess it is just designers choice. The top bag appears to have a rounder bottom corners, the bottom much more square. But that does not affect the use of the fold/dart. The darts/folds are created by making the leather wider along the bottom of the front piece and tucking it in. Again just a design choice, not necessary. I would bet the back piece of the top bag does not have those folds.  If you don't want that look, just create your pattern as a flat piece and then measure your gusset around that. If you wanted the dart/fold you would create the dart to take up that excess material and then you would measure for the gusset. I believe the gusset is three pieces, perhaps more without seeing the bottom. It doesn't take nearly as big a piece of leather that way. If you want to create that fold look I would skive down the thickness at the edge, so the leather will lay down better. To make them even you need to measure out the same distance from each edge to start the fold and take up the same amount of material on both folds. Tack or glue it down and then sew.

wow. thanks blue duck for your time in explaining this. 

So if I understand, the folds are a design element accomplished by making the front width a little greater and gathering the extra length at matching anchor points. BTW, you're right, the back doesnt have the folds.

Further, the rivetted bands on the sides may, or may not have a pocket behind them, as they may simply be a design for attaching different sections of the gusset?

Honestly, you have cured the many obsessed sleepless hours with your single post, and I'm indebted to you. 

Lacking the actual construction experience it's difficult to conceptualize some of the bags I see, and would want to emulate. And obviously, most bags do not show photos of the bottom.

Would you consider solving my only other riddle causing my lack of sleep?  I'll post the question and photos after my old man nap. thanks again mr duck.  Jeff

 

[blue duck]

39 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

if I understand, the folds are a design element accomplished by making the front width a little greater and gathering the extra length at matching anchor points.

You are quite right. If you do want to do this technique, make sure and lay it out on paper, put the actual fold in. You will find it is not a straight line across the bottom. You will need to add a bit extra to compensate for the fold. It is hard to describe, but if you would like to do it, I will draw (very poorly) what I am trying to explain.

42 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

the rivetted bands on the sides may, or may not have a pocket behind them, as they may simply be a design for attaching different sections of the gusset

I am pretty sure it is just a design element. No pocket included, but you could change it to that if you like. See how the upper part of the gusset goes over the bottom? That would also help keep weather/water/etc. from sliding down into the seam. (Well that is why I would do it)

51 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

most bags do not show photos of the bottom

For this bag I think you would want to add feet just to protect your leather. But you can accomplish this with many different options. Metal feet, 4, 5, 6 whatever keeps it off the ground. Metal or wood bars. Even use of 'spots' or other hardware that sits proud of the leather. Depending on your bottom leather, you may want or need to reinforce the bottom.

46 minutes ago, jrprottas said:

Would you consider solving my only other riddle causing my lack of sleep?

I will certainly try. However,  melatonin might really be the answer.  

 

 

[jrprottas]

Below are a couple of photos of a Saddleback Mtn. backpack that is said to be made from only 2pcs of leather. The flap, back and bottom in one piece; and the front and sides from a second piece of leather.

A friend created the template on a CAD  program the dimensions of which don't work. Does the template design reflect the correct approach?

Is there a formula for creating the darts?  viz width and depth measurements? Or a straightforward explanation of how to tinker with pattern to make the pcs fit together?

[Tugadude]

Blue Duck is correct.  The first bag was based upon the traditional U.S. Mail Bag design and they sometimes featured the folds.  I presume it was to allow the bag to bulge out a bit more and create extra capacity, however small it might be.

So it is mainly an aesthetic choice.  Regarding the template, I would just cut and fold until it resembles what you want it to be.  Looks like the paper is pliable enough that you can accomplish that.  I'm not big on making exact copies of marketed items, so I would change "something" about it, just to personalize the design.  YMMV.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Tugadude

[blue duck]

My opinion on that SBM, well we won't get into that too much, just don't buy into all of their 'reasoning' behind design etc. Much of it is just marketing, which they are really good at. But I would maybe steer clear of that type design to begin with for practical reasons as well. That will be a real bugger to sew, unless you have access to a sewing machine. I guess a patcher. It could be hand stitched, but don't think that would be any fun. For a beginner project, those are some really big pieces of leather to buy, work with, or perhaps mess up.

Mr. Tuga has the right idea. Just cut out of paper to begin with and adjust to suit. The one you have looks like a good start on how you would create darts. After you make the paper look right, I would suggest making the pattern out of something cheap. Felt will have a bit of body and give you an idea how the design will work. When satisfied,  you might even do it with cheap leather before using the good stuff. It will also help with the construction sequence.

As a gee whiz, when making a pattern don't forget to add your seam allowance where needed. Another lesson learned the hard way.

 

[chrisash]

Tandy has some free e-books at present the 3 x Al Stohlman "leather cases vol 1-3" may be of assistance to you

[jrprottas]

3 hours ago, chrisash said:

Tandy has some free e-books at present the 3 x Al Stohlman "leather cases vol 1-3" may be of assistance to you

great lead. thanks. I'll check them out tonight

[jrprottas]

I'm not finding the free ebooks on tandy's site. do you have the url?  thank you so much

On 8/2/2019 at 10:40 PM, thunter9 said:

i have a cb 4500 the complete package would  like to sell . even have the foam the head was shipped in 

do to my health 

 

On 8/10/2019 at 7:04 AM, mikesc said:

"Sustain oil" ?
btw..If you are on a phone ( your mention of "app" suggest that you probably are ) the consensus , amongst those who post from phones, is that the easiest way to reduce the data size of an image is to email it to yourself.
re the mark I tend to think that even if you dyed the whole thing very dark, you'd still see it, and if it is oil ( what kind of oil ) the oily areas would probably not take up the dye as much as the rest, leaving you with a very dark bag, with a very visible stain.Camouflaging it might well work better if you cannot get it out.

 

18 hours ago, kgg said:

The main question is what do you want to make. Is it going to be mostly wallets, bags or holsters. Then decide what your budget is and from those decisions you can narrow down your machine choices, new /used, brand name / clone, flatbed / cylinder / post / patcher. Remember that no machine can do it all.

kgg

 

2 hours ago, jrprottas said:

great lead. thanks. I'll check them out tonight

 

[mikesc]

https://www.leathercraftlibrary.com/category/79/ebooks

Apparently it is all free, books, patterns, doodles etc, even access to the videos, at the moment.

How long that will last ?

Edited August 19, 2019 by mikesc

[LatigoAmigo]

1 hour ago, mikesc said:

How long that will last ?

Until they have everyone's name and email address.

[mikesc]

Given the breach that they had a few months ago, where a very large number of emails etc were taken, and GDPR, making everything free in order to harvest email addresses and details would seem to me to be a very very dumb idea..There will already be major fine hanging over them from the USA authorities ( I know that they were breached,  they said so, publicly and privately ) for the first breach , requiring email addresses etc for "free" downloads , when the items could just be linked to without requiring any "details" ( email or otherwise ) is a certain way to get a GDPR slap..Then again GDPR my be a reason why they shut down in Europe, so as to remove a "nexus" from Europe. Unfortunately, if that was the reason, GDPR doesn't work like that. Nor do the similar laws enacted since GDPR by some other countries and also by certain USA states , or others being put into law, by other countries and other USA states..If they use any of those emails, they will be up to their ears in trouble, no matter what their TOS may, or may not say.The days of companies being able to harvest email addresses and other details for "free" items , "free downloadable" items, or "win a whatever" are over since two years ago..Allowing access to "free" does not a "business relationship" make..anyone who did not already have an existing business relationship with them..cannot be contacted by them via any details that they may have given ( including email addresses ) in order to gain access to "free"..

Ps..does any one give real email addresses, I mean the ones that your ISP gives you ( gmail, hotmail etc don't count ) to anyone / any website ?

I run my own mail server, ( unlimited email addresses ) so everyone I contact gets a unique email address to send to, that way you know who sold it or gave it away or leaked it, and it can be set to "bounce" or "black hole" ..Domain hosting with unlimited email addresses is cheap..Hosting is cheap, VPS are cheap, even servers are cheap compared to what they used to cost. Even with unlimited bandwidth.

Edited August 20, 2019 by mikesc

[LatigoAmigo]

37 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Ps..does any one give real email addresses, I mean the ones that your ISP gives you ( gmail, hotmail etc don't count ) to anyone / any website ?

This is all very interesting, but wouldn't you need an active email address in order to get the "password" to activate your account in order to get more "free"?

[mikesc]

"Active" (as in "one that works" ) yes..but throwaway..or unique to that request for an email address..loads of places ( websites ) that will let you create an email address that you can throw away / "kill" / delete as soon as you get a link to "click to confirm / activate your account" ..

Or you can pick a domain name..get hosting with unlimited email addresses, and make an email address for each time that you are asked to give one. Or be "creative" with gmail ..I think ( I was one of the first 100 invited there back when it was invite only, but I only made gmail addresses to block anyone from using mycompanynames@gmail.com, I only log in to clear the spam, and to keep the addresses active for some android phones, so gmail may have changed what you can do with their addresses ) that gmail allows you to use a dot delimiter in their email addresses..like say this-site.me@gmail.com or use + signs, like this-site+me@gmail.com..That allows you to see who sold or leaked any email address made that way.

But using a domain or domains with unlimited email addresses that you can create and destroy or block is far more versatile..stops you having to wade through the spam when some one sells your address on, or when they get hacked..The first "spam" email from anyone, the address that was created for them, gets nuked..and a report filed to whoever is the authority for data protection in their country / state and mine.

 

ps..any website that sends you your password in "plain text" via email ( which is very rarely encrypted ) is not taking security seriously, ( and is in breach of many laws ) any one between the website ( even a website that is itself HTTPS ) and you ( that means anyone in the route , including all at your ISP ) can read it..

Edited August 20, 2019 by mikesc

[jrprottas]

All that is pretty scary esp since I just downloaded all Stohlmans books for free. 

If theres a class action lawsuit pls cut me in. 

[fredk]

I give my true email address when I want to hear back. Never had any problem.Never been hacked. I've used the same email addy for 20 years now. I only get a few spams every few days and they are from companies I no longer do business with. Main problem with the 'spam' is my email filter sometimes puts non-spam into the spam box. Same with my phone numbers, no problems, give them out only when I want to hear back. I just don't give email addy or ph numbers unless. I'm not that neurotic about it all

[LatigoAmigo]

As the saying goes, "If You're Not Paying For It, You've Become The Product," otherwise why are valuable e-books be given away for nothing? The bills have to get paid somehow. Not neurotic, just cautious. 

[fredk]

Its a very special offer by Tandy to celebrate their 100th Anniversary and the 100th anniversary year of Al Stohlman's birth

[LatigoAmigo]

1 hour ago, fredk said:

the 100th anniversary year of Al Stohlman's birth

Now that is something worth celebrating.

[chrisash]

Much of the data that is free is very dated and probably few if any pay for most of it, the few good items i would guess are still of little value to Tandy, but the marketing value of the free goods is priceless, they have immediately gone from the high price company, to a friendly giant, People who never use Tandy anymore, might just might be tempted to check them out once in a while

Anyway that's my take on it