Landis #1 and champion peerless 30

[amandabstewart]

I've stumbled on to a Landis #1 and a champion peerless 30. The Landis is in amazing shape...the champion is packed with junk around it but it looks good too...not sure because there are so many machine parts to it to my eyes!

I am near Amish country and Amish friends ao have a little help there most likely...

I know the Landis needles may be difficult to find...so searching there and would appreciate help. I should also look to be sure the shuttle is there, correct? It was owned and maintained by a fastidious cobbler...and has been sitting well stored for a long time. It has the book too.

I'm 99.9% certain the champion will be beyond me so it will be up for grabs...parts or whatever to save it from the dump.

I'm a newbie....not to antique-made crafts, but, def to these machines for sure! 

Will greatly appreciate help in learning and in rehoming thr champion. 

The son of this cobbler (who has now passed on) also has a singer in unbelievable shape...but he's not prepared to part with it yet. If he does I'll pass that info on as I'm sure it will be out of my $ range. 

Thanks so much, Amanda in WV

Edited September 20, 2019 by amandabstewart
Typo

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Original, old stock needles for the Landis #1 are next to impossible to find, but the 331LR needles do fit the machine (kind of).  They are a slightly smaller diameter where they clamp into the needle bar, so they tend to pull out of the machine on heavy work, when you least want them to.  Also, the thread groove is not ground into the needle as far up as the old needles, which limits the capacity of the machine.  If using a needle guide bushing of the correct size with the new stock needles, the thread binds in between the bushing and the top part of the needle and the thread gets snapped off.  Work under a heavy half inch is fine; over that and you'll have to do some modification to the needle.  Also, new needles are available down to 200 size, which means you aren't going to sew fine stuff.  Thread size 277 and up is all most of the shuttles on these Landis #1 machines are capable of holding tension on anyway.  There are a few key places to check for wear. . .needle bar, tension plates, shuttle itself, and basically any pivot point.  The shuttle should have a nice, sharp, well defined point, and there shouldn't be evidence of having the needle smashed to bits on top of it.  The top of the needle plate will give you some insight into how careful of an operator the machine has had as well.  It is careless operation and using these machines dry, that does more way damage than daily use by a conscientious operator.  

[amandabstewart]

Thanks tremendously!

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

You're welcome.  I used Landis #1 machines exclusively for the first 15 years I was in business.  I still keep at least one set up for special jobs.  They are a very simple machine, and unlike most other heavy harness stitchers, are still capable of sewing when 3/4 worn out.  It may not be a tight, pretty stitch, but they will still sew.  A low hours machine, with little wear and set up original needles amd correct size bushings, can produce a finer stitch than any modern day threaded-needle machine.  Keep us updated on how this turns out for you.

 

Edit, Added as an afterthought:. See if you can find the serial number on the machine.  It is usually stamped into the casting to the right of the presser foot bar, on top of the head.  Its not of much importance, but does go some insight into how early or late of a machine it might be.  Around my part of the country, the numbers seem to range from 3000-7000.  Just recently I acquired #149.  That is very early, and did not come from around here.  I got it for the mere fact that it is such an early number.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Big Sioux Saddlery

[amandabstewart]

The book was a 1936 year...will get serial number and report back :-) 

So I guess I'm not crazy for buying this, right?

[MikeRock]

Not crazy at all!!  Best machine going.  Takes a bit longer to make a set of tugs is all. 

God bless

[amandabstewart]

Thanks!

[amandabstewart]

Any thoughts on the champion? Going to take it also (package deal so he doesn't have to move them)

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, amandabstewart said:

Any thoughts on the champion? Going to take it also (package deal so he doesn't have to move them)

I don't know much about the Champions.  There was a wide throat harness machine, and a narrow throat machine similar to the American Straight Needle, and there may have been others.  They aren't nearly as commonly seen around here.  Parts, if needed will be difficult to find, like most of the other vintage machines.  Hopefully someone else comes along that can tell you more regarding value.

[Wizcrafts]

The problem with buying ancient sewing machines, especially those made for saddlery and harness, is that the companies have been out of business for many decades. Parts and accessories were sold off to dealers many years ago. Thus, if you buy a machine from the turn of the 20th Century and it needs a needle, shuttle, or a critical moving part, it may be made of Unobtanium.

[amandabstewart]

It's not with me yet...attached are photos. I'm 99% sure tbe shuttle was there when I first saw it (was distracted by picking up 8 antique side saddles), so I'm making sure shuttle is there. It has no rust thoughts appreciated

[Northmount]

15 minutes ago, amandabstewart said:

attached are photos

Photos missing.  You may need to resize your photos to fit the site's constraints.

Tom

[amandabstewart]

Landis update and a boat load of questions herein:

"She" and her champion companion are now home...much assistance needed from hubby and the farm tractor.  All is well : )

I'll upload pics and will try to upload pics of interesting letters from 1925 and 1940 (orders from Landis) from the original owner.  They are pretty cool.  I also have the original manual, and have made a good quality copy of it.  I'll PDF that and make it available for all as soon as the work copier decides to give in and send the file.

So, the serial number is #4843.  She came with two packs of original needles!  One part is cracked, but I have an OK work around (it's the part labeled #14 if you have the head diagram) this cracked part leads me to ask WHY is that part 2 pieces instead of one piece?  Why should it be able to pivot upwards?  isn't it just for lifting the presser foot? 

As of last night, she got a good scrub with cleaner recommended by my machinist brother--simply had no choice because of grime--and was re-lubricated.  I also spent a good amount of time getting the stitch length knob to cooperate with the spring and mechanism on the off side.  I think it's finally ok, but I did scratch the knob with a set of vice grips :-( but didn't have much of a choice to get it moving.  How easy should this turn?  and should it be a "dial" versus "click" kind of adjustment--meaning you have incremental ability to adjust not just set "clicks" of stitches per inch? 

As I start to sew, likely starting tonight, what thread and fabric would you recommend as a first trial?  heavy denim?  don't really have scrap leather I want to sacrifice at this point.  I have some thread that came with it, but will prob just hang on to that for nostalgic reasons.  This brings  me to another observation--the part #48 (boiler, complete) is full of bizarre black tar looking stuff.  I can scrape it out with a screwdriver--and I'm assuming I should, right?  it's almost glass like on the top, and black gooey blob underneath that. 

The champion: 

I've started the cleaning and oiling process and it cranks through as it should but will need some TLC and tweaking here and there.  I actually think this thing may work!  I would be so super happy if I managed to get it working.  I have a few parts to go over of course, and the grime and grit on it is intense, so I will need to REALLY scrub it.  The awl and hook from the bobbin side is still there.  Looks like the bobbin assembly is too, but I need to read the book before I know how to correctly remove it. The thing is darn cool actually.  It takes a lot of muscle to get it to turn and I only did it a few times after lubrication , but hopefully with proper cleaning it will be easier.  Not sure how tight it should be since it's motor driven.  Regardless, it's fun to see how it works!

 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

7 hours ago, amandabstewart said:

One part is cracked, but I have an OK work around (it's the part labeled #14 if you have the head diagram) this cracked part leads me to ask WHY is that part 2 pieces instead of one piece?  Why should it be able to pivot upwards?  isn't it just for lifting the presser foot? 

Most I have seen were one solid piece, a few pivot.  I'm not sure at what point in time it was changed, nor why.

 

7 hours ago, amandabstewart said:

I think it's finally ok, but I did scratch the knob with a set of vice grips :-( but didn't have much of a choice to get it moving.  How easy should this turn?  and should it be a "dial" versus "click" kind of adjustment--meaning you have incremental ability to adjust not just set "clicks" of stitches per inch

To change the stitch length, you are suppose to put a screwdriver between the cam wheel #26 and the feed regulating arm #29 and pry to release the pressure on the ratchet nut.  The handle on the hand wheel must be at the bottom when you do this.  Sometimes on machine that has set for a long time, things are stuck and won't release. I have one I'm tearing apart right now that was completely stuck, and I can turn the feed regulator screw, but can't pry the arm #29 to release pressure.  But it'll come eventually.  If done correctly, there should be no clicking when you turn that screw.

7 hours ago, amandabstewart said:

As I start to sew, likely starting tonight, what thread and fabric would you recommend as a first trial?  heavy denim?  don't really have scrap leather I want to sacrifice at this point.  

You need to have 3/16"- 1/4" of leather under the foot to be able to set this machine up.  It was not made to sew lightweight stuff.  When tuned and tight, they'll sew an inch.

 

7 hours ago, amandabstewart said:

This brings  me to another observation--the part #48 (boiler, complete) is full of bizarre black tar looking stuff.  I can scrape it out with a screwdriver--and I'm assuming I should, right?  it's almost glass like on the top, and black gooey blob underneath that. 

That is hard wax.  Scrape out what you can, oven cleaner works to soften the rest up, but it takes awhile and repeated applications.

Best of luck, I am having fun following your progress.

[Wizcrafts]

10 hours ago, amandabstewart said:

what thread and fabric would you recommend as a first trial?  heavy denim?

These old harness stitchers were made before synthetic thread was available. They were built to tension linen thread run through a wax pot containing hot or liquid beeswax. The wax hardens after a while, both inside the pot and on the thread. Waxed linen thread can withstand decades of use and abuse and still hold leather items together.

[amandabstewart]

Big Sioux (sorry I can't figure out how to easily do the multiple quote boxes like you did)

Can I post the book here as a pdf?  I've always been an internet "taker"....so time to be  "giver" as the copy I have is very clear. 

I actually did the screwdriver method before I read that in the book...and I can adjust it easily when I do that.  Too bad I scratched the knob  stupid, stupid me!  it's ok, but, really, I know better!

I'll grab some scrap leather...even considering disassembly of a crappy western saddle to use the fender leather.  I also do a lot of wool felting and fulling--to 1" or so...so it will be neat to see how it handles sewing hard wool to leather. 

Any idea of age based on SN 4843?  The book says 1936, but I have letters from '25.

I have about 13 needles!  10 size 2 and 3 size 3 I think, plus one that was in the machine when I got it.  I'll send pics of the original packaging and these super neat letters from 1925 and 1940.  I love knowing about where these machines were in their first lives!  Interestingly enough, my first thought is that this old guy must have sold the useful ones, kept the singer for nostalgia, and parked the landis and champion in his basement and barn because they were likely missing parts, etc, thus boat anchors.  I think I was very wrong....it seems maybe he kept his favorite ones?  It's like he used them...and then time stopped.  This is why they aren't rusty I guess.  There appear to be no marks from inappropriate use.  If the family parts with that Singer--I may need to sneak there in the dark of night as hubby is probably at his toleration point.  (cast iron gear/cam based loom called the Weaver's Delight on the front porch...need I say more)

Lord knows I'm crazy, but how much would I adore having the original burner that heated the boiler?  Flames + cast iron machine =  in my book.  Seems like the ones I've seen pics of don't have that boiler attached at all.  I guess that could give you more room for sewing cylindrical items though. 

 

Wizcrafts:  so the needle would pierce the leather, dip into the wax pot below, and then go back up, correct?  I did read the instructions for waxing the bobbin thread.  Very interesting!  I'm an avid hand spinner--wools, silks, etc,--but haven't tried linen although I do have a set up that should work for linen.  NOW I'm considering doing a linen 2-ply just to see if I can do it.  Even if I only did it once, it would be so neat to do it 100% the old way at least once.  I'm a little surprised that waxed linen lasts that long.  I do have some OLD OLD side saddles, and the panels are thin leather on top and linen on the "horse side."  However, this linen fabric doesn't look linen at all--it looks like cotton ticking fabric.  I'll look more carefully at what thread was on it, but the bobbin looks linen-ish to me.  Same as what's in the Champion's top thread...

 

I GREATLY appreciate the help and encouragement you guys are providing.  I am probably considered a little young to do these crazy things (my family understands a little...anyone crazy enough to call me a friend thinks I'm nuts OR they are even weirder and want to play with the antique toys)...so the experience you guys have is so valuable to me.  I am at that age where I realize that people can't nail 2 boards together...and most people have ZERO skills.  Thus, I'm watching all of this expertise die away as people in their 80s and 90s all pass  I didn't even realize there was a really old guy here in WV that passed last year...apparently, saddle maker for decades, and he had a Landis.  We never know about these people until it's too late!  This is why--to my hubby's dismay--that I do dedicate time to getting some of my equipment out at festival demos...especially my old sock knitter.  Kids (and mostly men) love that crazy thing and love to watch it work...and at least the skill isn't entirely dead.  I wish there was a festival for ALL of this stuff. 

I've always wanted a stitcher like this--and it just sort of happened.  Now with my intense desire to ride side saddle again as an adult, and realizing I can't afford what I need AT ALL, I'm now down a very deep rabbit hole...

I can't thank you guys enough! will try to get pics asap. 

 

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, amandabstewart said:

Wizcrafts:  so the needle would pierce the leather, dip into the wax pot below, and then go back up, correct?

Here is a link to a Landis 1 manual topic, posted by our member, Uwe, who scanned an original Landis 1 manual and posted it on the forum.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

8 hours ago, amandabstewart said:

Any idea of age based on SN 4843?  The book says 1936, but I have letters from '25.

There is so little information about the early years of the company, and as far as I know, no surviving records of machine serial numbers in reference to the year of manufacture.  Your best bet would be if someone happens to have original documentation for a machine, and honestly, I would love to hear about that as well.  A friend and I were just talking the other day about how interesting it would be to know the history of our machines: date of manufacture, original purchaser, etc.

#2 and 3 needles are pretty large, and would not be used for general harness work.  A #4 needle was the most common size used for general work, as evidenced by the scarcity of original needles in that size.  #5 needles would be used for a little lighter work, while #6 and 7 for very fine work with light thread. New needles are available that will work in the machine, but they are somewhat different than the originals, and require some modification for heavier work.  The top part of the shank diameter is smaller than the originals, and will more easily pull out of the machine in heavy work.  It's not a good thing when that happens.

I have two original lamps for the Landis #1 machines, and a couple of my machines still have the boilers on them.  Once people quit using had wax, the boiler was something that could be dispensed with to reduce weight when moving the machine.  There were small wax pots that were factory made for solution wax, and attached to the left of the tension plates under the bolt that goes through the pressure foot spring.  

8 hours ago, amandabstewart said:

I've always wanted a stitcher like this--and it just sort of happened.  Now with my intense desire to ride side saddle again as an adult, and realizing I can't afford what I need AT ALL, I'm now down a very deep rabbit hole...

My dear, you have no idea how deep that rabbit hole is!!

Edited September 27, 2019 by Big Sioux Saddlery

[Hansons Carriage]

I'd love to have a good copy of a manual, but there's no way in hell I'm interested in paying $50!!  I'll keep on with my old copy with the grainy pictures!

I'll have to go see what my serial number is, mine came from a guy in Kansas.

John

Edited October 20, 2019 by Hansons Carriage