Edge Kote rubbing off....solution?

[JLDetroit]

You might want to give some black or brown Tokonole a go. I love that stuff. Here is an edge I did last night. That is two coats of brown Tokonole. 

[JLDetroit]

I should clarify. I did not dye the edge. I wet sanded the edge and then burnished with water only, followed by two coats of brown Tokonole. 

[Hardrada]

I was afraid of having this problem. So far, can't say I've had it. But maybe it's because I never use wax. Just Edge Kote, sand with 400 grit with a light touch, second coat of Edge Kote, Tokonole and that's all.

[HondoMan]

Tried Resolene (50/50 with water) over the Edge Kote.  Better, but still rub off.

Tokonole over Edge Kote.... that's new.  Worth a wee try.  Odd with the Tokonole are no instructions or recommendations.  Found only one YouTube video.  Nothing more than burnishing, sanding and Tokonole and then wax.

[chiefjason]

I'm using mop and glo mixed 50/50 with water.  But you can do the same with resolene or any number of acrylic finishes.  They are basically the same thing.  I think you just need something that's going to seal the wax and dye up better.  

[Hardrada]

Pardon my ignorance, but, must you use wax?

Maybe I'm doing something wrong by not waxing my edges, but so far all I care about is that they look neat, which they mostly do with my process—except for the belts which show a bit of a texture rather than the plastic-like smoothness I'd like them to have.

I'm waiting to have something like a Regad to see if hot spatulas burnish better than cocobolo slickers.

[Handstitched]

I'm going to feel like the odd one out here, but I have never used trag, or any edge kote of any kind. After I have dyed the belt or whatever, and , while its still slightly  damp,  I just use a slicker ,(  of which is just a component from a roller door  )  and use the wood handle  one of my  bevellers to finish , and seal as normal ,  comes up a treat  and nothing rubs off  

If I think about it, I'll take a pic of a belt I'm currently working on .

HS

[HondoMan]

@chiefjason, I checked Amazon a number of months ago due to the Mop & Glo recommendation.  Bloody 50€ for a bottle!  No made in Europe.  I used resolene on the weekend.  Helped a wee bit, but there is still rub off.

@Hardrada, wax puts a barrier on the open flesh of the leather.  If you simply sew to pieces of leather together that only have edge kote or whatever, you're no sealing that wee seam.  Moisture can seep in between the layers of leather.  If you're using twine or linen thread, it can lead to a faster destruction of the stitch.

@Handstitched, I also never use trag.  Me issue is with harness or bridle, dyed from the tannery, leaving the edge natural  (especially black dyed from the tannery),  is looking....odd...even grey.

[Handstitched]

@HondoMan I had a similar issue with some buffalo hides, 5- 6mm , dyed black .  

I got them cheap , ' on special' . I had a such a difficult time  sealing  the leather when making belts, dog collars etc. The black kept coming through.   Every sealer I used didn't work .  So, I ordered some lacquer from NSW ( Australia) , an equivalent to  ' Neat-Lac' .  But, because of ' Dangerous Goods'  laws  it couldn't  be transported by air , road transport was too costly, more than the product was worth.  So , much experimenting later, I now use a water based varnish I got from my local hardware shop . Its mainly used for wood etc.  Its not the ' be all & end all' , but it works, and it flexible  . And  as its water based, it dries quick .  I just had to think outside the square . 

HS 

[HondoMan]

On 1/10/2020 at 6:44 PM, Hardrada said:

I was afraid of having this problem. So far, can't say I've had it. But maybe it's because I never use wax. Just Edge Kote, sand with 400 grit with a light touch, second coat of Edge Kote, Tokonole and that's all.

I did a wee experiment as you described.  Me first attempt I waited a day after the edge kote and on the second I waited 48 hours.  Applying Tokonole after Edge Kote turned a disaster!  The first time I applied the Tokonole (again after 24 hours) and me fingertip was completely black!  I don't mean a little discoloured - jet black!  On the second try, I used a cotton swab and it too was fully blackened and on both attempts I had yet to use wax.  No good that.  I did apply a second layer of Tokonole and while there was less bleed of the Edge Kote, obviously the Tokonole creates a wee reaction over the Edge Kote. 

[Hardrada]

8 hours ago, HondoMan said:

I did a wee experiment as you described.  Me first attempt I waited a day after the edge kote and on the second I waited 48 hours.  Applying Tokonole after Edge Kote turned a disaster!  The first time I applied the Tokonole (again after 24 hours) and me fingertip was completely black!  I don't mean a little discoloured - jet black!  On the second try, I used a cotton swab and it too was fully blackened and on both attempts I had yet to use wax.  No good that.  I did apply a second layer of Tokonole and while there was less bleed of the Edge Kote, obviously the Tokonole creates a wee reaction over the Edge Kote. 

Wow! Can't say I've had that ever happen to me. Maybe the Edge Kote they sell in Bayern is different?

I've adapted my process after this guy's (he does use wax, though—I don't):

 

Sorry my process didn't work for you. Honestly, I dunno why. I've been applying Tokonole to the Edge Kote-painted edge within 20-30 minutes of applying the second coat (it seems to dry fast) and burnishing and my wood slicker isn't even black yet. I get nothing on my fingers either. Weird.

[HondoMan]

@Hardrada, I've no clue why this is happening.  Am also curious...  I've seen the video (Terrick does a brilliant job!).  How did you adopt your edge work from his?  He doesn't use Tokonole and is using leather dye not Edge Kote.

[Hardrada]

What I took from him on that video, added to what I had learnt from books and other sources consolidated my edge finishing process to this:

1. Trim or glass to make joined edges even. (I don't like sanding them because they mushroom, and also because I don't like using machines. I was using a Dremel, but the results were unsatisfactory to my liking.)
2. Apply Edge Kote. Let dry (about 30 min).
3. Sand with 400 grit with a light touch in one direction only.
4. Apply second coat of Edge Kote. Let dry.
5. Seal: with Tokonole.
6. Slick.

I tried using wax, but the slicker was getting too greasy. I tried to burnish with denim but the fibres from it were being left on the edge and it was a pain to remove them, so I gave up. I used to use gum tragacanth, and for the English bridle belts I made a solution of white school glue and water (as per suggestion by one of the members here) because I was afraid of the Edge Kote rubbing off and ruining somebody's dress garments; but once I got the Tokonole and saw that it has consistency not unlike white glue, that's all I've been using. I wanna get ahold of some brown and black Tokonole.

Also, sometimes I don't apply Edge Kote at all, but leave them edges natural and just burnish with Tokonole. Again, I was applying wax after the Tokonole, but stopped for reasons explained above. When I get to order some canvas, I want to try the wax again. I was using beeswax, but I wanna buy and try some of the Columbus wax RM Leather supply sells—it's supposedly superior to regular beeswax.

Oh, by the way, I was really concerned about the edge coating rubbing off, so I went to a local shoe repair shop and asked the guy there about it. I asked him if it would be better to use regular dye, or the Fiebing's Pro dye instead of Edge Kote to prevent this problem, and he said that really, Edge Kote is the most versatile thing to use for edges, and that rubbing off shouldn't be a problem. He said that even though that meant I put back the bottles of dye I had grabbed from the counter with the intent of purchasing them: if he was willing to lose the sale, I assumed he was telling me the truth.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Hardrada

[spellboundjournals]

So I checked the Material Safety Data Sheet on Edge Kote and Dura Edge (I use Dura Edge)  and they're basically acrylic paints that are water based.  So on a chemical basis, there is your issue: water (the paint) and oil (the wax) don't mix. Once you get the wax on there and start burnishing and generating heat, the two will try to combine and fail.  

I'm not entirely sure why you're trying to use wax and burnish AFTER you've used a product that was designed to be a finish.  You can use Edge Kote on just clean cut edges or you can burnish with water before you apply Edge Kote, but once it's applied correctly, you should be finished with the edge, with no need to try and burnish or seal it after.

But yeah, in short: you can't put wax and edge kote on the same edge, or they'll just come back off.  But the good news is that you don't have to trash the Edge Kote you bought, just don't put wax on it haha.

[Mark842]

I use liquitex brand varnish. It comes in matte and gloss. It is an acrylic and it is flexible. It will last and it will not crack when the leather is bent or folded. It goes on super easy with a brush, sponge, rag or airbrush. Anything you put it over will no longer bleed...except the cuts on your fingers...

[chuck123wapati]

are your burnishers contaminated with wax or something so when you first burnish you get the edge contaminted? I just used edge kote yesterday, burnished with water then applied with the wrong end of the brush a light coat then when dry very lightly burnished and buffed.

[Hardrada]

It's probably been suggested above (too lazy now to scroll up or turn to the previous page), but I never burnish with water prior to dyeing edges: it's my belief (maybe wrong, who knows) that by flattening the fibres the penetration of the dye is reduced. I've not gotten bad results so far dyeing with fuzzy fibres, so I'm sticking to my process.

[billybopp]

14 minutes ago, Hardrada said:

It's probably been suggested above (too lazy now to scroll up or turn to the previous page), but I never burnish with water prior to dyeing edges: it's my belief (maybe wrong, who knows) that by flattening the fibres the penetration of the dye is reduced. I've not gotten bad results so far dyeing with fuzzy fibres, so I'm sticking to my process.

Burnishing before dying the edge does lessen dye penetration, but that's not necessarily a bad thing since un-burnished edges tend to absorb more than the grain does - sometimes to the point of bleeding through from behind to the grain a short distance, which doesn't look so good usually!

- Bill